Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

[don_joe]

Talking about this subject, this is what I found in an article today. The link is to a Serbian news portal (sorry, it's not in English):

http://www.novosti.rs/vesti/naslovn...SRODNIJI-SU-NAM-HRVATI-Srbi-su-potomci-Dacana

This guy's theory is that 70% of Serbians, Croatians and Romanias stem from Dacians. That's why they are genetically so close and he claims that it's even linguistically obvious. Interesting theory, I can't personally judge if the argumentaion is solid enough but I would like to read some comments on this if someone would be willing to chime in. Please provide an explanation in English for the part you're commenting for those who don't understand Serbian. Thanks.

 

[hrvat22]

Talking about this subject, this is what I found in an article today. The link is to a Serbian news portal (sorry, it's not in English):

http://www.novosti.rs/vesti/naslovn...SRODNIJI-SU-NAM-HRVATI-Srbi-su-potomci-Dacana

This guy's theory is that 70% of Serbians, Croatians and Romanias stem from Dacians. That's why they are genetically so close and he claims that it's even linguistically obvious. Interesting theory, I can't personally judge if the argumentaion is solid enough but I would like to read some comments on this if someone would be willing to chime in. Please provide an explanation in English for the part you're commenting for those who don't understand Serbian. Thanks.

Old data is used here, so it's no use even comment this.

Genetics has revealed that the northern peoples of India have the same main haplogroup as Slavs and Persians.

Is it clear to you now?

 

[MaxCRO]

Serbs are similar to Romanians, to Croats not really.

 

[don_joe]

Old data is used here, so it's no use even comment this.



Is it clear to you now?

Very informative answer...

 

[hrvat22]

don_joe

Very informative answer...

At your service sir.:cool-v:

 

[Cpluskx]

Found some charts here:

http://www.nevgen.org/PCA%20charts/PCA%20axis%203-1%20zoomed%20Southern%20Europe.png
http://www.nevgen.org/PCA charts/PCA axis 3-1 zoomed Northern Eastern Europe.png

 

[MaxCRO]

Found some charts here:

http://www.nevgen.org/PCA%20charts/PCA%20axis%203-1%20zoomed%20Southern%20Europe.png
http://www.nevgen.org/PCA charts/PCA axis 3-1 zoomed Northern Eastern Europe.png

Looks like shit, no offence. BiH Serbs and Bosniaks more northern shifted than Croats ? Yeah right lol
Wouldn't be suprised if Serbs made this fake PCA. Nevgen calc is made by people from Poreklo. And only Serbs call Bosniaks BiH-muslims, to imply they are not legit ethnic group.

Other time post serious work dude.

 

[don_joe]

At your service sir.:cool-v:

My apologies. You're actually right. I've missed this part in the original link. I understand now what you meant. OK, this dicredits him for me too. Ignore this link, sorry. [emoji4]

 

[Johane Derite]

I have never been to Serbia and I have no Serbian ancestors.

Read: http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/austrian-scholars-leave-albania-lost-for-words/

Markod, honestly, the more I am sent this article the more and more suspicious it becomes. It's extremely full of untruths. For example, in the article they claim that Albanians had no Illyrian names and that the communist dictatorship forced them upon the populace. This is something absurd that for someone who isn't Albanian or doesn't know the language maybe will mistake for being true . Its totally untrue and absurd, and exposes this article as a hit piece by a mercenary journalist. These type of games can be played with people who aren't embedded in the culture and so have absolutely no point of references.
There was and is a giant Albanian diaspora outside of the Communist dictatorship of Albania. Arberesh, Albanians in Kosovo, in Fyrom, Montenegro, etc. These were all Albanians that were not under any sort of influence from these supposed political programs. If these supposed name changes were as effective as this article claims, then we would easily see it in an absolute lack of illyrian/dardanian inherited names in non-communist region Albanians.

This is not the case, as many names like Bardhi, etc are universal in the Albanian territories. Not only is there a universality and widespread of names like these,
but there is DOCUMENTED instances of these names long BEFORE communism even conceived of reaching Albania. For example, the medival Albanian writer Frang Bardhi (1606 - 1643).

In 1913, Franz Nopsca listed many cognates, and inherited names shared with Illyrian and Albanian. This is 30 years before communism existed in Albania.

The work is titled: Thrakisch-Albanische Parallelen but there are more than enough native Illyrian-Albanian shared words that he found.

Here is the link: https://www.tpsalomonreinach.mom.fr...4xGk7dlj5OXVZjB1e9vmd2igHawVmVbDB2ZNjbh7HNyKg

 

[Sile]

Markod, honestly, the more I am sent this article the more and more suspicious it becomes. It's extremely full of untruths. For example, in the article they claim that Albanians had no Illyrian names and that the communist dictatorship forced them upon the populace. This is something absurd that for someone who isn't Albanian or doesn't know the language maybe will mistake for being true . Its totally untrue and absurd, and exposes this article as a hit piece by a mercenary journalist. These type of games can be played with people who aren't embedded in the culture and so have absolutely no point of references.
There was and is a giant Albanian diaspora outside of the Communist dictatorship of Albania. Arberesh, Albanians in Kosovo, in Fyrom, Montenegro, etc. These were all Albanians that were not under any sort of influence from these supposed political programs. If these supposed name changes were as effective as this article claims, then we would easily see it in an absolute lack of illyrian/dardanian inherited names in non-communist region Albanians.
This is not the case, as many names like Bardhi, etc are universal in the Albanian territories. Not only is there a universality and widespread of names like these,
but there is DOCUMENTED instances of these names long BEFORE communism even conceived of reaching Albania. For example, the medival Albanian writer Frang Bardhi (1606 - 1643).
In 1913, Franz Nopsca listed many cognates, and inherited names shared with Illyrian and Albanian. This is 30 years before communism existed in Albania.
The work is titled: Thrakisch-Albanische Parallelen but there are more than enough native Illyrian-Albanian shared words that he found.
Here is the link: https://www.tpsalomonreinach.mom.fr...4xGk7dlj5OXVZjB1e9vmd2igHawVmVbDB2ZNjbh7HNyKg

His famous works was
Bardhi is remembered as the author of the first Albanian dictionary Dictionarium latino-epiroticum (Latin-Albanian dictionary) published in Rome in 1635, comprising 5,640 entries.
but someone in wiki in brakets wrote Latin-Albanian, when Latino-epiroticum means Latin-Epirote dictionary
IIRC , skandenberg claims albanians where Epirotes .....I will recheck.
.
it was under another albanian writer
One of the earliest was the History of the life and deeds of Scanderbeg, Prince of the Epirotes (Latin: Historia de vita et gestis Scanderbegi, Epirotarum Principis; Rome, 1508), published a mere four decades after Skanderbeg's death, written by Albanian-Venetian historian Marinus Barletius,

 

[Aspurg]

Administrative census of the Bosnian army (Turkish administration) a large number of Bosnian soldiers with their own(muslim) names are mentioned as Croats, this is yeare 1526. In that list, Croats are mentioned in Nikšić(Central Montenegro), Sandžak, Drina valley(eastern Herzegovina) and throughout the Bosnia.

Ahmed Aličić - List of Bosnian Army before the Battle of Mohač in 1526, in Croatian language.

Croat/Hrvat designation in that defter designates the location from where are ghulams and merds (companions) of sipahis, so for ex. you have Behram Croat and Hajdar Bosnia accompanying sipahi Alija, so Behram is from "Croatia" and Hajdar is from "Bosnia", all Croats are designated as ghulams that is they were captured probably recently. So "Croat" there does not mean they are locals, they were captured abroad. Alicic explained it in the introduction, and I have knowledge of Ottoman Turkish so I know alot about defters.

Btw. I have my family from both sides in that defter, one of those numerous christian sipahis belonged to my clan, but he didn't go to war, while from my maternal side I see at least 3 sipahis I'm related to.:cool-v:

 

[hrvat22]

Croat/Hrvat designation in that defter designates the location from where are ghulams and merds (companions) of sipahis, so for ex. you have Behram Croat and Hajdar Bosnia accompanying sipahi Alija, so Behram is from "Croatia" and Hajdar is from "Bosnia", all Croats are designated as ghulams that is they were captured probably recently. So "Croat" there does not mean they are locals, they were captured abroad. Alicic explained it the introduction, and I have knowledge of Ottoman Turkish so I know alot about defters.

Btw. I have my family from both sides in that defter, one of those numerous christian sipahis belonged to my clan, but he didn't go to war, while from my maternal side I see at least 3 sipahis I'm related to.:cool-v:

This is list of Bosnian army from year 1526. and ethnonym Croat that exist in Bosnia, eastern Herzegovina, Montenegro and Serbia. What kind of connections Croats from Croatia have with Croats with Muslim names and area of southern Serbia, central Bosnia or central Montenegro?

that is they were captured probably recently

There are no data for this, because we do not know what ghulam word means.

Eyalet of Bosnia in today part of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_Eyalet

 

[Aspurg]

This is list of Bosnian army from year 1526. and ethnonym Croat that exist in Bosnia, eastern Herzegovina, Montenegro and Serbia. What kind of connections Croats from Croatia have with Croats with Muslim names and area of southern Serbia, central Bosnia or central Montenegro?

This is not an ethnonym. Otherwise Bosna/Bosnia is also an ethnonym in this context?

Granice bosanske države u vrijeme osmanskih osvajanja bile
su sljedeće: od Save na sjeveru do Jadranskog mora na jugu; od
Novog Pazara na istoku do planine Dinare na zapadu; od Kamengrada
na sjeverozapadu do Kotora na jugoistoku; od Mačve na sjeveroistoku
do Makarske na jugozapadu. Do 1526. godine, kada je
nastao naš defter, Osmanlije su bili zauzeli gotovo cijelo to područje
sa izuzetkom tzv. jajačke banovine, koja će nešto kasnije
ući u sastav Osmanskog Carstva. Međutim, Osmanlije su bili zauzeli
i neka područja izvan tih granica. To je oblast koju su zatvarale
planine Dinara i Velebit ili, preciznije rečeno, oblast južno od Velebita
i zapadno od planine Dinare. Osmanlije su zvanično označavali
tu oblast kao vilajet Hrvat (vilajet Hrvatska). U administrativno-
sudskom pogledu taj teritorij je pripadao kadiluku Skradin.
Prema tome, kadiluk Skradin i vilajet Hrvati su jedan te isti teritorij,
koji je globalno zauzimao područja Sinja, Knina, Drniša i
Skradina. U toj oblasti bilo je desetak malih nahija koje su pretežno
sačuvale svoja stara imena i u novoj administraciji.5 Do 1526.
godine još nije bio pao u osmanske ruke grad Klis i njegova okolina.
Posmatrano sa geografskog stanovišta, to i nije velika oblast,
a posmatrano sa stanovišta našeg popisa i broja muslimana koji su
označeni sa Hrvat, onda je taj broj dosta velik i ta oblast je, čini
se, predstavljala značajno uporište Osmanlija ne samo kao granični
teritorij nego kao izvor vojnog, već islamiziranog, potencijala.
Prema tome, kad god se uz jedno lice donese oznaka Hrvat,onda to označava čovjeka porijeklom iz krajeva koji su ulazili u
sastav vilajeta Hrvati, a izrazom Bosna označavali su ljude porijeklom
sa teritorija srednjovjekovne bosanske države.

So according to author Croat means that person in question descends from the vilayet Croatia/Hrvat, which was at that time Knin, Sinj, Drnis and Skradin.

So what kind of connections do Croats from Croatia share with Croats from Croatia who were captured by the Ottomans, made slave-soldiers/ghulams and brought back to Ottoman Bosnia? I'd say they have lots of connection with Croats from Knin, Sinj, Drnis and Skradin because they descend from there.

There are no data for this, because we do not know what ghulam word means.

You may not know but every orientalist knows perfectly well what ghulam is, it comes from Arabic, and means servant, slave.

It is also used to refer to slave-soldiers in the Abbasid, Ottoman, Safavid and to a lesser extent, Mughal empires, as described in the article Ghilman, which is the plural form of the word.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_Eyalet

That is Bosnia Eyalet formed in 1580, this defter was from 1526.

 

[hrvat22]

Aspurg

This is not an ethnonym. Otherwise Bosna/Bosnia is also an ethnonym in this context?

Today Bosniaks exist in Sandžak, as well as year 1526. Where are Croatians?

For me that is ethnonym.

The etnonames are the surname of a particular nation or are derived from the names of the people to whom the holder previously belonged or was under his domination.

https://www.pregrada.info/kolumne/etnici-i-etnonimi/

Croats in this area also mentions Derviş Mehmed Zillî (25 March 1611 – 1682), known as Evliya Çelebi, also exist and other mention of Croats in Bay of Kotor as well some Montenegrins in 19. century declare themselves in Istanbul as Croats, etc.

"Personal names Croatin-Hrvatin (since 1301), Hrvojin
(from 1475), Hrvo (from 1475), Hrvoje (from 1475) and Croat-Hrvat (from 1475) in the Middle Ages we find all over Eastern Herzegovina: from Bisce to Mostar through Zažablja, Popovo.
It also covers Trebinje to Biograd at Nevesinje and Plane at
Bileca. Related personal names were given in Boka Kotorska, Paštrović and Bar,
surnames Croat-Hrvat, Hrvatić / Hrvetić, Hrvojević, Hrvović and Hrvatić
from Stoliva in Boka Kotorska to Bar exist at least from
XV. century. The last name Croat-Rvat was recorded
at Niksic central Montenegro."

https://hrcak.srce.hr/171401?fbclid=IwAR3OiGeTxnL4p211Lrtzgd-jVq3LNGZci_pJ3c4Op42ArF5BP7_HKUah2ts

You may not know but every orientalist knows perfectly well what ghulam is, it comes from Arabic, and means servant, slave.

Please proof and link.

That is Bosnia Eyalet formed in 1580, this defter was from 1526.

Sanjak of Bosnia (Turkish: Bosna Sancağı, Serbo-Croatian: Bosanski sandžak) was one of the sanjaks of the Ottoman Empire established in 1463 when the lands conquered from the Bosnian Kingdom,
[TABLE="class: infobox geography, width: 290"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Today part of[/TD]
[TD]Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

In 1580, Ferhad Pasha Sokolović became the first governor of the Bosnia Eyalet, as beylerbey (also referred to as "pasha").^[5] The Bosnia Eyalet (or Pashaluk) included the Sanjak of Bosnia (central province), Sanjak of Herzegovina, Sanjak of Vučitrn, Sanjak of Prizren, Sanjak of Klis, Sanjak of Krka, and Sanjak of Pakrac.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjak_of_Bosnia

 

[Aspurg]

Today Bosniaks exist in Sandžak, as well as year 1526. Where are Croatians?


For me that is ethnonym.

It clearly is NOT. That can easily be proved from the same defter of 1526.


Some other people mentioned in 1526:
Ibrahim Karamani
Mustafa Siroz
Ahmed Adana, Ilijas Adana
Armagan Filibe
Pervane Madjar, gulam
Husein Ungurus, gulam


Are Karamanians, Serresians (Siroz), Adanaians, Filibeans ethnonyms? Most definitely not as you would have us believe.
Rather what they refer to is that these persons are from the Eyalet of Karaman, Sanjak of Siroz (Serres), Sanjak of Adana, Sanjak of Filibe..
Again Madjar and Ungurus have designations of ghulam because those are areas not yet conquered by the Ottomans like the case with Hrvat, so people from there are captured converted and become slave-soldiers just as is the case with vilayet Hrvat/Croat which encompassed Sinj, Knin, Drniš and Skradin, so all of these Croats are from there. And there you go, we've solved the "puzzle".

https://www.pregrada.info/kolumne/etnici-i-etnonimi/


Croats in this area also mentions Derviş Mehmed Zillî (25 March 1611 – 1682), known as Evliya Çelebi, also exist and other mention of Croats in Bay of Kotor as well some Montenegrins in 19. century declare themselves in Istanbul as Croats, etc.


"Personal names Croatin-Hrvatin (since 1301), Hrvojin
(from 1475), Hrvo (from 1475), Hrvoje (from 1475) and Croat-Hrvat (from 1475) in the Middle Ages we find all over Eastern Herzegovina: from Bisce to Mostar through Zažablja, Popovo.


https://hrcak.srce.hr/171401?fbclid=IwAR3OiGeTxnL4p211Lrtzgd-jVq3LNGZci_pJ3c4Op42ArF5BP7_HKUah2ts

That has nothing to do with the context of Hrvat in this census of 1526. Many surnames of the "Croat or Bosniak" sort are also geographic designations "the one who came from Croatia, Bosnia".

Please proof and link.

Defter of Isa-beg Krajiste from 1455 (Krajiste Isa bega Isakovica, zbirni katastarski popis iz 1455.), Sabanovic
pg127
GULAM (ar.Gulam) boy, servant, slave, vassal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjak_of_Bosnia

Your referred to the Eyalet of Bosnia which didn't exist at that time, Sanjak of Bosnia did, those are two different administrative designations.


Btw as you like to talk about Croats, I think I've found likely genetic traces of real Croats, you know not the usual people. They don't exist among Serbs but it seems Croats quite possibly did have Alanic elite among Slavic haplogroups (I2a or R1a branches). Congratulations!! I couldn't spot yet any R-Z93 but some other interesting haplotypes are there.

 

[hrvat22]

Aspurg

It clearly is NOT. That can easily be proved from the same defter of 1526.


Some other people mentioned in 1526:
Ibrahim Karamani
Mustafa Siroz
Ahmed Adana, Ilijas Adana
Armagan Filibe
Pervane Madjar, gulam
Husein Ungurus, gulam

What does this have to do with Croats in that area? Croats are also mentioned in the ethnonyms and toponyms in that wider area (in other sources). In that area are probably mentoned and Dukljans, Vlachs, Montenegrins, Serbs, Rascians etc and it does not refute presence of Croats in that area.

That has nothing to do with the context of Hrvat in this census of 1526. Many surnames of the "Croat or Bosniak" sort are also geographic designations "the one who came from Croatia, Bosnia".

How has nothing to do? In that time and earlier in wider space of Sanjak (southern Serbia) exist Croatian ethnonym(I previously quoted data). In Niksic (central Montenegro) Croat is mentioned by Evliya Çelebi 1611 – 1682, as well in the register from year 1526. In that register there are also mention Croats around Sarajevo.

Defter of Isa-beg Krajiste from 1455 (Krajiste Isa bega Isakovica, zbirni katastarski popis iz 1455.), Sabanovic
pg127
GULAM (ar.Gulam) boy, servant, slave, vassal

Therefore the evidence does not exist. I asked for a proof and link where it is claimed that word Gulam means servant or anything else. Only Sabanovic claims that and it is his personal opinion without any verifiable evidence especially from Turkish sources. In register of the Bosnian army from year 1526. Sabanovic proves its claims with words I quote

probably and seems like

therefore there is no proof what exactly term Gulam means.

Your referred to the Eyalet of Bosnia which didn't exist at that time, Sanjak of Bosnia did, those are two different administrative designations.

Register of the Bosnian army, 1526.
"It is known that all area on territory of medieval Bosnian state, which are Ottomans then occupied, been included in two sandžak: Bosnian and Herzegovinian Sandžak."
"By 1526, when our defter being created, Ottomans had occupied almost all of that areas with exception of the so-called " jajačka banovina"

The Sanjak of Herzegovina (Turkish: Hersek Sancağı) was an Ottoman administrative unit established in 1470.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjak_of_Herzegovina

Sanjak of Bosnia (Turkish: Bosna Sancağı, Serbo-Croatian: Bosanski sandžak) was one of the sanjaks of the Ottoman Empire established in 1463

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjak_of_Bosnia

Btw as you like to talk about Croats, I think I've found likely genetic traces of real Croats, you know not the usual people. They don't exist among Serbs but it seems Croats quite possibly did have Alanic elite among Slavic haplogroups (I2a or R1a branches). Congratulations!! I couldn't spot yet any R-Z93 but some other interesting haplotypes are there.

Sir, if you want to know more about origin of Croatians feel free to look and learn something.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31539-Genetics-confirm-migration-of-White-Croats-to-Croatia

 

[Srbadija]

Looks like shit, no offence. BiH Serbs and Bosniaks more northern shifted than Croats ? Yeah right lol
Wouldn't be suprised if Serbs made this fake PCA. Nevgen calc is made by people from Poreklo. And only Serbs call Bosniaks BiH-muslims, to imply they are not legit ethnic group.

Other time post serious work dude.

People from Eastern part of Bosnia and Herzegowina are generally more northern shifted than others.

 

[Atlantische]

People from Eastern part of Bosnia and Herzegowina are generally more northern shifted than others.

They weren't.

Looks like shit, no offence. BiH Serbs and Bosniaks more northern shifted than Croats ? Yeah right lol
Wouldn't be suprised if Serbs made this fake PCA. Nevgen calc is made by people from Poreklo. And only Serbs call Bosniaks BiH-muslims, to imply they are not legit ethnic group.

Other time post serious work dude.

I'm not sure are we looking at same PCA, but most of Croats are more ''northern'' shifted than Serbs.

 

[Srbadija]

They weren't.



I'm not sure are we looking at same PCA, but most of Croats are more ''northern'' shifted than Serbs.

We are speaking about Bosnian Croats, Serbs and Bosniaks. If you really don't believe in what i am saying, then just search for Carleton Coon's work about Balkan anthropology.

 

[Wonomyro]

We are speaking about Bosnian Croats, Serbs and Bosniaks. If you really don't believe in what i am saying, then just search for Carleton Coon's work about Balkan anthropology.

What does Coon's work have to do with autosomal data?