J2b1-M205 introduced to Eupedia

There is some new things. Like our English-Irish-Canadian branch got their distant relatives in Yemen with who they share TMRCA 2300 years before present which fits Punic Wars very good and time of Roman-Phoenician wars. But usually news arrive very slowly therefore i think some major news will arrive every 1 year in average.
For now we know much more about J2-M205 then before. What is characteristic for J2-M205 is that it has TMRCA 5900 ybp. Therefore all J2-M205 come from one man who lived 5900 years ago. Also our oldest ancient DNA found is from Jordan 4500 ybp and Lebanon 3600 ybp.

-Therefore we can assume that MRCA of all J2-M205 lived and expanded in Middle East since 4000 BCE.

-I connect expansion of J2-M205 line with Akkadians, Canaanites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Phoenicians, Greeks, and finally Romans.

For such a small haplogroup not only that we have confirmed by ancient DNA most of these origins but also whenever ancient Roman bones tested J2-M205 was present among them with most likely earlier Phoenician or other Middle Eastern origin.
 
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@Dema: I saw on the Serbian Y-DNA Project forum that it was mentioned that you form a cluster under Y22063>BY162742 with a mainland Greek from a particular study. Thought I should inform you of this since it's about you.
 
@Dema: I saw on the Serbian Y-DNA Project forum that it was mentioned that you form a cluster under Y22063>BY162742 with a mainland Greek from a particular study. Thought I should inform you of this since it's about you.


Aha, thanks for letting me know, i also just seen what they are writing. Well that does not surprise me because just as ancient Greeks had strong interactions with Phoenicians, M205 is pretty strong within Greeks. Highest percentage of J2-M205 in the world is among Cypriot Greeks and Greeks for sure have quite a few various sublcades that would be interesting for further testing.
This is a good read - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Wars
Guerre_greco-puniche_Greek-punic_wars_1.0.jpg


Its quite possible that we (Y22059) had Hellenic identity rather then Roman one after losing Phoenician identity and settling Balkan. That is why in previous post i mentioned both Greeks and Romans.

Problem is that we dont have a single Greek in Yfull and most of these that tested did very few markers and did not advance tests.
The only Greek on Yfull is mr. Porfiriadis also Y22075+ with Turkish flag but with clearly Greek ethnicity living in what is now Turkey. I would recommend him to put Greek flag rather then Turkish one since he is obviously a Greek and that is personal choice of preference. But also Italians are problem because they have also some very interesting subclades which are not yet properly tested. Perhaps in future this will change.

Regarding this Greek from study sharing one of my private SNPs its very interesting but does not tell us too much, lets hope we find that sample in FTDNA and make some advance tests.

Y22059 is most likely ancient (at least 2000 years old) in these waters because if it was recent we would find recent connection. :wary2:
 
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It means that me and that continental Greek from study (GR99-151) had same ancestor in time of 600-800 years ago and that we form new subclade under Y22063 of course.
But since he is from study we dont have any additional information about him. It would not be bad idea to extract his autosomal from bam file and see where he plots and do we even match on some segments.

Also i see that in same study Serbs discovered that sample TBS19 from Turkish Black Sea Coast shares one SNP with Y22059 meaning he splits entire Y22059 but its most likely very distant connection. As i understood bam file is not of good quality and therefore all SNPs cant be checked. Sharing one out of 30 SNPs can be distant over 5000 years.

This sample TBS19 is designated to live in Turkish Black Sea Coast but its not clear to me is he Turk or Greek?
Anyways, whatever his ethnicity is, he is most likely of previous Canaanite/Phoenician origin.

Look what Wikipedia says about South Black Sea shores:

"Early into the Iron Age, the Phoenicians established ports, warehouses, markets, and settlement all across the Mediterranean and up to the southern Black Sea. Initially led by Tyre, colonies were established on Cyprus, Sardinia, the Balearic Islands, Sicily, and Malta, as well as the fertile coasts of North Africa and the mineral rich Iberian Peninsula."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia#Ascendance_and_high_point_(1200–800_BCE)

Study: A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean
 
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@Dema: I saw on the Serbian Y-DNA Project forum that it was mentioned that you form a cluster under Y22063>BY162742 with a mainland Greek from a particular study. Thought I should inform you of this since it's about you.


Just downloaded bam files to see for autosomal data but these files are so small that its possible that they contain only Y chromosome information.
I will see for this later. However i checked this Cont. Greek and Turkish Black Coast individual for my private SNPs and it seems Serbs have made little unintentional mistake, so its not BY162742 that we share but as it seems its BY162370.


Also i found that continental Greek and Turkish Black Coast person both share my private SNP BY162370.

Also in this study there is continental Italian which is positive to SNP A11525 which is probably on Y22059 level and all these samples are positive to this SNP.


So, its something like this:

J2-M205>Y22075>A11525>? Cont. Italian (RCG24) (TMRCA 3000-5000 ybp)
J2-M205>Y22075>A11525>Y22059>Y22063>BY162370 Dema Kosovo, Cont. Greek (GR99-151), Turkish Black Sea Coast sample (TBS19) (TMRCA 600-800 ybp)


I will have to check all this few more times but im pretty sure its right.

This is great discovery, i will think more about it later
 
I have double checked the situation within mentioned study, also i asked Albanian administrator Flor Veseli and he show me some mistakes that i made but looks like Serbs have also made many mistakes. Also Flor has said to double check everything in Monday.

Therefore i double checked everything again and new results say that mentioned continental Greek does not share any of my novel SNPs. However he is positive for Y22063. Therefore most likely Y22063*.

In this study there are 3 samples very interesting for Y22059 (Balkan cluster of J2-M205). There is Cont. Italian (RCG24), Cont. Greek (GR99-151), and person labeled by location Turkish Black Sea (TBS19) with high chance to belong to Greek ethnicity.

So, as it looks by results Turkish guy shares one SNP (A11525) with us and negative to at least 12.
Italian guy shares 1 SNP (A11525) with us and negative to 1 (Y24810).
And Greek guy is positive to Y22063 therefore his results are pretty clear, he is very close to us.


According to this new phylogeny will be something like this:

J2-M205>Y22075>A11525>Turkish Black Sea guy (TMRCA 4000-5000 ybp)

J2-M205>Y22075>A11525> Cont. Italian (TMRCA 1500 - 5000 ybp)

J2-M205>Y22075>A11525>Y24810>Y22063 Cont Greek (TMRCA 1000 ybp)

Since we are all positive for A11525 that will probably become our new branch designation and probably one of oldest SNPs within these 30ish novel SNPs our group has.

Both Italian and Turkish guy split our clade with high TMRCA but Italian guy has really low coverage while Turkish guy has somewhat better. There is no coverage on many SNPs therefore we cant know very precisely but without doubt these are further connections that Y22059 Balkan cluster has looked for long time and it found them in Central Italy and Turkish Black Sea, with potential TMRCA 4000-5000 ybp.

Here is results i got for SNPs on Y22059 level against these 3 samples from study:

Y22059 nocov


Y22079 nocov GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


Y22062 nocov


Y22060 nocov


Y22074 nocov


Y22061 nocov


Y22066 nocov


Y22067 positive GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


Y22064 positive GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


Y22065 positive GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


Y22071 nocov GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


Y22080 nocov


A11525 positive GRE positive ITA positive TUR


Y22081 nocov GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


Y22073 nocov GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


Y22083 nocov GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


Y22068 positive GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


Y24805 nocov


Y24806 nocov


Y24809 nocov


BY40885 nocov


BY40913 nocov


Y24808 nocov


Y22078 nocov GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


Y24811 nocov


Y24807 nocov


Y22077 nocov


FT238853 nocov


Y24810 positive GRE negative ITA negative TUR


FGC55083 nocov GRE nocov ITA negative TUR


Y188611 nocov


Y24804 nocov


Y22063 positive GRE negative ITA negative TUR
 
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Just checked all J2b samples from given study A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean
and results are next:

GR99-3 Cont. Greece J2b-M12>M205+

PAL03 Cont. Italy J2b-M12>M205+

RCG24 Cont. Italy J2b-M12>M205>Y22075>A11525+

GR99-151 Cont. Greece J2b-M12>M205>Y22075>A11525>Y24810>Y22063+

TBS19 Turkish Black Sea coast J2b-M12>M205>Y22075>A11525+

GR99-2 Cont. Greece J2b-M12>M241>L283>Z600>Z638+

TWM9744 West Turkey J2b-M12>M241>L283>Z600>Z638+

BRI001 Cont. Italy J2b-M12>M241>L283>Z600>Z638+
 
Bad and good news, just redownloaded GR99-151 again and rechecked and seems he really shares one of my private SNPs, so as Serbs said BY162742 / Y153290.

Maybe file was corrupted or something.

It means that this Cont. Greek is yet my closest relative but sharing only one of my SNPs it can be probably 600-900 years away.

Now i go recheck rest of SNPs again.....
 
Anyways, just triple checked everything, looks like everything is good just as in previous post except fact that Cont. Greek from this study really shares one of my SNPs.

So, this is really big news for me personally but for entire Y22059/Y22066 Balkan cluster of J2-M205.


Let me try to define new Y22059 Balkan cluster phylogeny one more time based on new finds:


J2-M205>Y22075>A11525+ Turkish Black Sea (TMRCA 4000-5000 ybp)
J2-M205>Y22075>A11525+ Cont. Italian (TMRCA 1500 - 5000 ybp)
J2-M205>Y22075>A11525>Y24810>Y22059+ Balkan (TMRCA 1000 ybp)
J2-M205>Y22075>A11525>Y24810>Y22059>Y22063>BY162742/Y153290+ Albanian and Greek (TMRCA 600 - 700 ybp)




Triple checked snps (RCG24 ITA, TBS19 TUR) from study:


Y22079 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y22062 nocov

Y22074 nocov

Y22060 nocov

Y22061 nocov

Y22066 nocov

Y22067 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y22064 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y22065 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y22071 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y22080 nocov

A11525 ITA positive TUR positive

Y22081 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y22073 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y22083 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y22068 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y24805 nocov

Y24806 nocov

Y24809 nocov

BY40885 nocov

BY40913 nocov

Y24808 nocov

Y22059 nocov

Y22078 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y24811 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y24807 nocov

Y22077 nocov

FT238853 nocov

Y24810 ITA negative TUR negative

FGC55083 ITA nocov TUR negative

Y188611 nocov

Y24804 nocov

Y22063 ITA negative TUR negative
 
lol i got tired of this.. Looks like Italian file i downloaded only had 50mb but somehow it was showing it as fully downloaded bam file. Therefore thats why i got all these no reads instead of positive/negative.
I realised my file has only 50mb and when i redownloaded then it had 200mb. Probably the same thing happened with Greek file and thats why i could not get positive read on my private SNP.
Anyways since i worked with one of corrupted files before now i did it all again. The only difference is where i had no read on Italian before now i mostly get NEGATIVE same as Turkish sample.



Therefore i made few mistakes in previous phylogeny and this should be definitive good one:


J2-M205>Y22075>A11525+ Turkish Black Sea (TMRCA 4000-5000 ybp)
J2-M205>Y22075>A11525+ Cont. Italian (TMRCA 4000 - 5000 ybp)
J2-M205>Y22075>A11525>Y22059+ Balkan (TMRCA 1000 ybp)
J2-M205>Y22075>A11525>Y22059>Y22063>BY162742+ Albanian and Greek (TMRCA 600 - 700 ybp)


Therefore Turkish Black Sea sample and Continental Italian split our clade (Y22059/Y22066) in same way with overall TMRCA of around 4000-5000 years.


Here is definitive SNP call list
(RCG24 ITA, TBS19 TUR) from study:


Y22079 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

Y22062 NOCOV

Y22074 NOCOV

Y22060 NOCOV

Y22061 NOCOV

Y22066 NOCOV

Y22067 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

Y22064 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

Y22065 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

Y22071 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

Y22080 NOCOV

A11525 ITA POSITIVE TUR POSITIVE

Y22081 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

Y22073 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

Y22083 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

Y22068 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

Y24805 NOCOV

Y24806 NOCOV

Y24809 NOCOV

BY40885 NOCOV

BY40913 NOCOV

Y24808 NOCOV

Y22059 NOCOV

Y22078 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

Y24811 NOCOV

Y24807 NOCOV

Y22077 NOCOV

FT238853 NOCOV

Y24810 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

FGC55083 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE

Y188611 NOCOV

Y24804 NOCOV

Y22063 ITA NEGATIVE TUR NEGATIVE


 
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What is interesting about these results is that both Cont. Italian and Turkish Black Sea sample have same reads against Y22059/Y22066 level of SNPs.

19 not covered, 12 negative, and 1 positive.


Since they are positive to exactly same SNP (A11525) and negative to all same 12 other SNPs from Y22059 lvl i think there is decent chance they belong to relatively same or close branch.
Also since there is 12 negatives and only 1 positive i think the negative trend would continue within the rest of 19 not covered SNPs, even tho there is chance they would share few more SNPs with us except A11525.


Therefore its safe to say that Balkan clade Y22059/Y22066 has TMRCA at least 4000-5000 years ago with their closest cousins in continental Italy and Turkish Black Sea.
 
Hey Dema! Any input on the possibility of Greek ethnos after Phoenician? You remember the story I told you way back, does it make more sense now with regards to the new findings?
 
Hey Dema! Any input on the possibility of Greek ethnos after Phoenician? You remember the story I told you way back, does it make more sense now with regards to the new findings?
Hello Mercurial, best regards!
I remember your story of Greek origin and with new finds of Y22063 Greek which shares TMRCA 600-700 years with me. Also with new Italian and possibly Anatolian Greek or Turk samples which share TMRCA over 4000 years with us. But also because of high diversity among Greeks and actually highest percantage of J2-M205 in the world among Cypriot Greeks, it makes me believe that many subclades spread with Greeks after lossing Phoenician/Canaanite identity.

I definitely believe that J2-M205>Y22059 spread with Greeks and is more northern J2-M205 line, unlike most of its brother clades being more south towards Greece, Italy, Mediterranean Sea, and Middle East.

Also i asked two Albanian admins recently for opinion and they both said it's probably Greek expansion.

Also what i think is because of no close relatives and closest ones being few thousand years far from us, we are not that recent arrival. Maybe we arrived with very early Greek colonies which started since 800 BCE. Like for example Albanian city Durrës which actually started as a Greek colony in 600 BCE. Or Island Pharos which was also Greek colony, and so on.. I would say Y22059 arrived in Balkans earliest with Greek colonies around 600 BCE or latest with Roman Empire.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app
 
Thank you for the response Dema!

I have just a little bit more information. Above my village there there are many highlands and there exists a place that was called "Grčke trle" (Greek stables) within what is known as "Čuka" region and the road that leads to there and beyond was called the Greek road. Me and my broad family own a lot of forests in this area and we even found some old ruins in one of the parcels. Like an entrance to the building with bricks. I've learned that trla means a stable, but I got that from the internet. I will investigate further.
 
Hi Mercurial, my father comes from area close to where you live in Leskovac. He was born in the village of Babicko on Babicka Gora (mountain), which seems close to your village Orasac. In fact, the mountain is the southern part of your village. For around 2 years I have been researching Karakacani/Sarakatsani, and I have finally concluded that my dad ancestors were from this ethnic group. Going back 6-7 generations, my earliest known ancestor Kosta, arrived with his family from Djustendil Banja (Bulgaria), and found Babicko village.

I read some of your other posts here, and you are right that our area has many Vlach names for mountains, lakes, towns, and villages.
North of Babicko, there is a village called Grkinja (Greek female), most likely found by a Greek Karakatchani shephered who had a daughter. Suva Planina as well as many villages west and south-west of Leskovac (opposite side of us), has a record of Karakatchani settling there, after ending their semi-nomadic lifestyle.
My YDNA BigY is I1-M253, and has origins in Greece in 13th century, but it is believed to have come from Northern Europe or Southern Scandinavia, into Balkans around 4-5 century AD.

Lets connect if interested.

Cheers
 
Thank you for the response Dema!

I have just a little bit more information. Above my village there there are many highlands and there exists a place that was called "Grčke trle" (Greek stables) within what is known as "Čuka" region and the road that leads to there and beyond was called the Greek road. Me and my broad family own a lot of forests in this area and we even found some old ruins in one of the parcels. Like an entrance to the building with bricks. I've learned that trla means a stable, but I got that from the internet. I will investigate further.

Check my previous post on this thread, I believe we have Karakatchani ancestors who live close to each other. Lets connect. Cheers
 
Hey driM7! That's an interesting story! Yes, Orasac village is super close to Babicka gora, it's as close as it gets, here's a picture of it from a highland in my village. Babicka is on the left and Suva planina is on the right. Happy to connect and share info! :)
View attachment 12904
 
Hey driM7! That's an interesting story! Yes, Orasac village is super close to Babicka gora, it's as close as it gets, here's a picture of it from a highland in my village. Babicka is on the left and Suva planina is on the right. Happy to connect and share info! :)
View attachment 12904
Thanks. Pity I can not open this attachment. By the way, I've responded to your private message, unsure if you received it. Otherwise I will resend.
Cheers
 
Hello, everybody. I think that Municipium S near Pljevlja could be good starting point for finding possible Kriči's ancestore. This was important Roman mining centar in II and III century. It has large necropole and I think that it is quite plausabile that our ancestore came as a soldier, crafstman, miner or what so ever, most probably from Levanth as it is stated earlier.
Additionaly, I somehow feel that our ancestore was an early Christian, since preasthood is important part of almost every familly story regarding this haplogroupe, as far as I can see.
Best regards!
 

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