J2b1-M205 introduced to Eupedia

We are the arab administrators of j2b-m205 We are the one’s who are building clades and uploading Arabic Samples to whole of m205 I would love to get in contact with you guys outside the forum on e-mail or twitter , please send me your e-mail or twitter account on private so we can discuss m205 ! So happy to know my Serbian Cousins :)
BTW I’m the Syrian Guy who connected with the Ukrainian Sample on FT73408 :)
 
2 years ban for discussing DNA results, seriously ???
 
Hello guys, there is not much things going on. Except today we know much more about J2-M205 then we used to know few years back. This haplogroup was very mysterious and had a lot of space for speculations but with very rapid Yfull development of this haplogroup and lots of ancient samples today its origin and almost everything regarding this haplogroup is very clear.

So i just want to give kind of conclusion and my thoughts about expansion of J2-M205.

So J2b-M205 is Zagros native haplogroup, just as all J2b branches and many other J lines it is neolithic and paleolithic Zagros hunter-gatherer hg.
However it had long bottleneck prior to its EBA expansion (formed 15800 ybp, tmrca 7200 ybp).

In EBA it expands from Zagros to Middle East together with other various branches of J haplogroups like J1, J2b2-Z2453, some branches of J2a, and so on..
From Early Bronze Age and later J-M205 expands all the way south to todays Oman and Yemen, and in Iron Age it expands thru Mediterranean Sea.

And finally few hundred years prior to Common Era it enters among Romans and from time of Imperial Rome we find it regularly among ancient Roman bones either administrative ones from central Rome or mercenary ones just as we had case of roman gladiator found in England bearing J2-M205. Most of J2-M205 splits into two main branches CTS1969 and somewhat younger brother Y47134. CTS1969 is mostly levantine and Mediterranean with some southern branches. While Y47134Y is entirely southern mostly found in Arabian Peninsula, Oman and Yemen.

Y47134 expansion from Levant to Oman and Yemen fits with Akkadian Empire sending military expeditions to conquer these territories.
CTS1969 Iron Age Mediterranean expansion and entering the Roman ethnos fits with Phoenicians taking over Mediterranean Sea, and later falling under Romans after the Punic Wars.
There is also possibility of migrations from Levant to further Roman Empire during the entire time of actual Roman Empire.

Also our Ukrainian sample which is CTS1969 and Y47134 negative found its cousins in Syria with TMRCA 2600 ybp which pretty much can also be considered an Roman expansion.

Regarding Y22059 which is mostly found in Balkans, there is strong indication that line was send from Roman Empire to provinces in Illyria and got illyricized and later with Middle Age Slavic conquers of territory most part of it got slavicized. (will write more about this line later)

Therefore all European J2-M205 samples which dont have Middle Eastern relatives closer then 1500 years can be considered Roman expansion. And these are mostly within CTS1969 but we have some exceptions like our British, Canadian, Ukrainian samples which are CTS1969 and Y47134 negative.
So our British J2-M205 samples, Italian ones, Spanish, Serbian, or even myself Albanian, we were most likely semitic speakers prior to Punic Wars and after the Punic Wars we become Romans and expanded further within borders of empire. Most of my opinions are based on ancient dna and Yfull development. If there is any question, comment, or whatever, please dont hesitate, write freely. Best regards and much love !
 
There is mysterious and largely still unexplored Roman center in nowadays northern Montenegro. It name is Municipium S although it official name is stil unknown. This was the region close to Illyrian tribe of Pirusiti who were skilfull miners. The center was inhabited from first to fourth century. The signs of different religions including eastern cults are found. The location of this Roman municipium is actually in the very heart of Kriči's territory. One more interesting thing is that some very luxurious picies of glasswork are found most probably from famous Cologne workshops. On the other hand the revolutionary technique of glassblowing was established in the early first century in the region of Levant in the city of Sydon. It quickly spread into western parts of Roman Empire where prior to this glass was rearly used in everyday life since it quality was poor. Moreover there was one master craftsman from Sydon called Ennion who supposedly moved to Acuileia in his late years. The art of glasswork also spread to Cyprus very early. Although many different events from that period could be the trigger for movement from Levant to Balkans I think that this glassblowing theory could be possible. Regards
 
There is mysterious and largely still unexplored Roman center in nowadays northern Montenegro. It name is Municipium S although it official name is stil unknown. This was the region close to Illyrian tribe of Pirusiti who were skilfull miners. The center was inhabited from first to fourth century. The signs of different religions including eastern cults are found. The location of this Roman municipium is actually in the very heart of Kriči's territory. One more interesting thing is that some very luxurious picies of glasswork are found most probably from famous Cologne workshops. On the other hand the revolutionary technique of glassblowing was established in the early first century in the region of Levant in the city of Sydon. It quickly spread into western parts of Roman Empire where prior to this glass was rearly used in everyday life since it quality was poor. Moreover there was one master craftsman from Sydon called Ennion who supposedly moved to Acuileia in his late years. The art of glasswork also spread to Cyprus very early. Although many different events from that period could be the trigger for movement from Levant to Balkans I think that this glassblowing theory could be possible. Regards

Hello, yes everything is possible. I like to look at it thru numismatics and archeology. So J2-M205 was found in ancient Sidon and even older ancient Jordan sample from time of Akkadian Empire. Then it appears among Imperial Romans around Common Era. So when exploring Balkan thru numismatic finds we know how often Severian coins can be found. After the Constantinian dynasty, and some Illyrian emperors like Valens, Valentinan, or Probus. We know that Severian coins are very often finds in Balkans. Either of emperors Geta and Caracalla or their father Septimius Severus.
Septimius Severus was born Leptis Magna - originally a 7th-century BC Phoenician foundation, and later conquered by Romans.
He spoke local Punic language fluently, but he was also educated in Latin and Greek, which he spoke with a slight accent.
Septimius was proclaimed emperor by Pannoian Illyrian legions. And he died in England. His son Caracalla granted citizenship to all free man throughout Roman Empire which later enabled Illyrians to become emperors and therefore then we have long reign of Illyrian emperors as were Diocletian, Constantine the Great, Valens, Valentinian, Justinian, and others..
Septimius Severus was very proud of his Punic-Phoenician ancestry and he ordered Hannibal's tomb to covered in marble.

Therefore if we already had emperors of Phoenician and Punic origin operating in Balkans in time of Imperial Rome, and J2-M205 also after ancient Sydon and Jordan it starts to appear in Imperial Roman ancient bones. We can assume that this Y-DNA has arrived within the same or very similar way.

Same goes for Ukraine, British, Italian, Canadian, Spanish samples.....
There is not really much difference and we can freely assume that all European J2-M205 samples spread in similar way, mostly with Romans and prior to that with Phoenicians. That is also why line is mostly Mediterranean outside of Semitic realm.

P.S. Lets not forget that both Greek and Latin alphabets have origin in ancient Phoenician alphabet. Therefore there are various ways how this line could spread. But strongest evidences are with Romans since we find it regularly among ancient Roman bones.
 
I know this thread hasn’t been bumped in a while but wanted to thank (most) of the contributors for an interesting investigation and conversation. I am J2-M205 with paper trial paternal ancestors in Bari, Italy a few generations back. Unfortunately, the trail for my paternal line ends there. I hope to one day take a higher resolution y haplogroup test to give me more information on top of my 23&me test. My autosomal dna, per 23&me is ~40% south Italian (Bari and Teramo, confirmed with paper trail) and 60% British Isles. I am from the US.

From Dema’s most recent summary it looks like my J2-M205 comes most recently from Rome.

Thanks again!
 
Anyone can refute this if Im wrong But krici were part of the mataruge tribe until the 7th or 8th century when they split off from Mataruge I heard there were other tribes related to the krici and the mataruge by folklore such as the Bukumiri and the Macure, The Macure also migrated to Croatia and Herzegovina with krici and mataruge could this be sign they were close with each other? while the bukumiri migrated towards northern eastern Montonegro could these tribes be genetically related to each other? Since they were considered a Romanised nomadic tribes and documents such as. Glasnik Zemaljskog muzeja Bosne i Hercegovine u Sarajevu Bulletin du Musée de la République Socialiste de Bosnie- Herzégovine à Sarajevo. Etnologija which considers the bukumiri related to the krici and mataruge by folklore, Im not as good when it comes to genetics as it is for history
 
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Anyone can refute this if Im wrong But krici were part of the mataruge tribe until the 7th or 8th century when they split off from Mataruge I heard there were other tribes related to the krici and the mataruge by folklore such as the Bukumiri and the Macure, The Macure also migrated to Croatia and Herzegovina with krici and mataruge could this be sign they were close with each other? while the bukumiri migrated towards northern eastern Montonegro could these be genetically related to each other? Since they were considered a Romanised nomadic population and documents such as. Glasnik Zemaljskog muzeja Bosne i Hercegovine u Sarajevu Bulletin du Musée de la République Socialiste de Bosnie- Herzégovine à Sarajevo. Etnologija which considers the bukumiri related to the krici and mataruge by folklore, Im not as good when it comes to genetics as it is for history
Of course if you disagree with anything feel free to say why this is what i think and Im pretty open
 
also My last name Vujanic I presume comes from the name Vujan which means in Albanian like "They suffer" or "Suffer" or the history of my last name that would be great
 
also My last name Vujanic I presume comes from the name Vujan which means in Albanian like "They suffer" or "Suffer" or the history of my last name that would be great

Vujanic or Vujanovic comes from the name Vujan which is a variant of the Slavic name Vuk meaning wolf.
 
Vujanic or Vujanovic comes from the name Vujan which is a variant of the Slavic name Vuk meaning wolf.
My father told we got this name from killing a pack of wolves and wearing there heads this is what he told and which was told to him by his grandfather and father...
 
There is mysterious and largely still unexplored Roman center in nowadays northern Montenegro. It name is Municipium S although it official name is stil unknown. This was the region close to Illyrian tribe of Pirusiti who were skilfull miners. The center was inhabited from first to fourth century. The signs of different religions including eastern cults are found. The location of this Roman municipium is actually in the very heart of Kriči's territory. One more interesting thing is that some very luxurious picies of glasswork are found most probably from famous Cologne workshops. On the other hand the revolutionary technique of glassblowing was established in the early first century in the region of Levant in the city of Sydon. It quickly spread into western parts of Roman Empire where prior to this glass was rearly used in everyday life since it quality was poor. Moreover there was one master craftsman from Sydon called Ennion who supposedly moved to Acuileia in his late years. The art of glasswork also spread to Cyprus very early. Although many different events from that period could be the trigger for movement from Levant to Balkans I think that this glassblowing theory could be possible. Regards
Yes but the krici migrated to dalmatia with the mataruge and macure
 
@Dema I can i ask you something do you think you are from the krici tribe? But that would be almost impossible since they migrated to Dalmatia after being defeated by other Slavic tribes and have been adopted into the Slavic ethos Im from dalmatia and come from the areas where these nomadic tribes lived and settled i have multiply people with surnames similar to krici and mataruge or you could be a bukumiri or a spanji since they lived and been adopted into the bosinak and Albanian nationality

 
My father told we got this name from killing a pack of wolves and wearing there heads this is what he told and which was told to him by his grandfather and father...

Like most tribes all over the world, the tribes of Montenegro have an oral tradition that is not very reliable. A number of those tribes believe they descend from the Nemanjic dynasty. Their ethnic and territorial origins can be equally hazy, especially in ethnically diffuse areas such as the border region between Montenegro and Albania. Some of the tribes in Montenegro were bilingual before the formation of nation states. Examples are the Kuci to whom the famous Montenegrin general Marko Miljanov belonged. The Kuci are a tribe from the Brda region. If I remember correctly, the region in North Albania called Malësia means the same as Brda (mountains). By the way, Marko Miljanov's daughter Olga was married to famed US architect Frank Lloyd Wright.

Anyway, these tribes were of either Slavic, Albanian or Vlach origin but they shared the same space and were fraternising and forming alliances. For this purpose, they would invent common ancestries and mythical founding fathers. To name another example, take the Vasojevici tribe. Their exact origin is unknown. Depending on who you ask, they are either Serbs or Albanians but I think a Vlach origin is more likely. Slobodan Milosevic was a Vasojevic and E-V13. They have an oral tradition according to which they stem from a man called Vaso whose brothers Ozro, Pipo, Kraso and Hoto are the progenitors of the Ozrinici, Piperi, Krasnici and Hoti tribes. This is obviously pure fiction. What can be concluded from such tales is that the Vasojevici, just to name one example, were not a single tribe but probably a core clan that extended its name to other clans or tribes.

Nothing unusual about that. Just a couple centuries earlier, the Serbs and Croats extended their ethnonyms to other Slavic tribes and the assimilated Paleo-Balkanic peoples that inhabited those areas before them.
 
Like most tribes all over the world, the tribes of Montenegro have an oral tradition that is not very reliable. A number of those tribes believe they descend from the Nemanjic dynasty. Their ethnic and territorial origins can be equally hazy, especially in ethnically diffuse areas such as the border region between Montenegro and Albania. Some of the tribes in Montenegro were bilingual before the formation of nation states. Examples are the Kuci to whom the famous Montenegrin general Marko Miljanov belonged. The Kuci are a tribe from the Brda region. If I remember correctly, the region in North Albania called Malësia means the same as Brda (mountains). By the way, Marko Miljanov's daughter Olga was married to famed US architect Frank Lloyd Wright.

Anyway, these tribes were of either Slavic, Albanian or Vlach origin but they shared the same space and were fraternising and forming alliances. For this purpose, they would invent common ancestries and mythical founding fathers. To name another example, take the Vasojevici tribe. Their exact origin is unknown. Depending on who you ask, they are either Serbs or Albanians but I think a Vlach origin is more likely. Slobodan Milosevic was a Vasojevic and E-V13. They have an oral tradition according to which they stem from a man called Vaso whose brothers Ozro, Pipo, Kraso and Hoto are the progenitors of the Ozrinici, Piperi, Krasnici and Hoti tribes. This is obviously pure fiction. What can be concluded from such tales is that the Vasojevici, just to name one example, were not a single tribe but probably a core clan that extended its name to other clans or tribes.

Nothing unusual about that. Just a couple centuries earlier, the Serbs and Croats extended their ethnonyms to other Slavic tribes and the assimilated Paleo-Balkanic peoples that inhabited those areas before them.
Yes, and just very recently even the President of Serbia is rumored to have an Albanian father, which is very likely.
 
Like most tribes all over the world, the tribes of Montenegro have an oral tradition that is not very reliable. A number of those tribes believe they descend from the Nemanjic dynasty. Their ethnic and territorial origins can be equally hazy, especially in ethnically diffuse areas such as the border region between Montenegro and Albania. Some of the tribes in Montenegro were bilingual before the formation of nation states. Examples are the Kuci to whom the famous Montenegrin general Marko Miljanov belonged. The Kuci are a tribe from the Brda region. If I remember correctly, the region in North Albania called Malësia means the same as Brda (mountains). By the way, Marko Miljanov's daughter Olga was married to famed US architect Frank Lloyd Wright.

Anyway, these tribes were of either Slavic, Albanian or Vlach origin but they shared the same space and were fraternising and forming alliances. For this purpose, they would invent common ancestries and mythical founding fathers. To name another example, take the Vasojevici tribe. Their exact origin is unknown. Depending on who you ask, they are either Serbs or Albanians but I think a Vlach origin is more likely. Slobodan Milosevic was a Vasojevic and E-V13. They have an oral tradition according to which they stem from a man called Vaso whose brothers Ozro, Pipo, Kraso and Hoto are the progenitors of the Ozrinici, Piperi, Krasnici and Hoti tribes. This is obviously pure fiction. What can be concluded from such tales is that the Vasojevici, just to name one example, were not a single tribe but probably a core clan that extended its name to other clans or tribes.

Nothing unusual about that. Just a couple centuries earlier, the Serbs and Croats extended their ethnonyms to other Slavic tribes and the assimilated Paleo-Balkanic peoples that inhabited those areas before them.
Im not sure about the krici I know for sure there are tribes that do claim to come from many serbian king and nobles
 
Like most tribes all over the world, the tribes of Montenegro have an oral tradition that is not very reliable. A number of those tribes believe they descend from the Nemanjic dynasty. Their ethnic and territorial origins can be equally hazy, especially in ethnically diffuse areas such as the border region between Montenegro and Albania. Some of the tribes in Montenegro were bilingual before the formation of nation states. Examples are the Kuci to whom the famous Montenegrin general Marko Miljanov belonged. The Kuci are a tribe from the Brda region. If I remember correctly, the region in North Albania called Malësia means the same as Brda (mountains). By the way, Marko Miljanov's daughter Olga was married to famed US architect Frank Lloyd Wright.

Anyway, these tribes were of either Slavic, Albanian or Vlach origin but they shared the same space and were fraternising and forming alliances. For this purpose, they would invent common ancestries and mythical founding fathers. To name another example, take the Vasojevici tribe. Their exact origin is unknown. Depending on who you ask, they are either Serbs or Albanians but I think a Vlach origin is more likely. Slobodan Milosevic was a Vasojevic and E-V13. They have an oral tradition according to which they stem from a man called Vaso whose brothers Ozro, Pipo, Kraso and Hoto are the progenitors of the Ozrinici, Piperi, Krasnici and Hoti tribes. This is obviously pure fiction. What can be concluded from such tales is that the Vasojevici, just to name one example, were not a single tribe but probably a core clan that extended its name to other clans or tribes.

Nothing unusual about that. Just a couple centuries earlier, the Serbs and Croats extended their ethnonyms to other Slavic tribes and the assimilated Paleo-Balkanic peoples that inhabited those areas before them.
Yes this very true many tribes are mixed I know I am im mixed 1 third croat 2 thirds serb My father who is half croat still keeps his serbian identity he even fought against Croats during the war in Serbia Krajina also tribes did mix around aswell with others of course that would have happened but tribes like macure, krici, Mataruge, bukumiri were expelled slavic tribes and these didnt allow their people to mix with them for who knows what
 
Like most tribes all over the world, the tribes of Montenegro have an oral tradition that is not very reliable. A number of those tribes believe they descend from the Nemanjic dynasty. Their ethnic and territorial origins can be equally hazy, especially in ethnically diffuse areas such as the border region between Montenegro and Albania. Some of the tribes in Montenegro were bilingual before the formation of nation states. Examples are the Kuci to whom the famous Montenegrin general Marko Miljanov belonged. The Kuci are a tribe from the Brda region. If I remember correctly, the region in North Albania called Malësia means the same as Brda (mountains). By the way, Marko Miljanov's daughter Olga was married to famed US architect Frank Lloyd Wright.

Anyway, these tribes were of either Slavic, Albanian or Vlach origin but they shared the same space and were fraternising and forming alliances. For this purpose, they would invent common ancestries and mythical founding fathers. To name another example, take the Vasojevici tribe. Their exact origin is unknown. Depending on who you ask, they are either Serbs or Albanians but I think a Vlach origin is more likely. Slobodan Milosevic was a Vasojevic and E-V13. They have an oral tradition according to which they stem from a man called Vaso whose brothers Ozro, Pipo, Kraso and Hoto are the progenitors of the Ozrinici, Piperi, Krasnici and Hoti tribes. This is obviously pure fiction. What can be concluded from such tales is that the Vasojevici, just to name one example, were not a single tribe but probably a core clan that extended its name to other clans or tribes.

Nothing unusual about that. Just a couple centuries earlier, the Serbs and Croats extended their ethnonyms to other Slavic tribes and the assimilated Paleo-Balkanic peoples that inhabited those areas before them.
Most of them consider themselves croat, serbs or bosniaks I think they could have been of Vlach origin romanised people of paleo Balkan origin such as Illyrians,Thracians etc could be a suggestion for these nomadic tribes or they could of Slavic and Vlach origins since they were able to migrate through Bosnia and Croatia which are countries that speak Slavic language it would very to move from another country to another without knowing some of the basics of the language or you fully know it and also why would they killed by other slavic tribes and kicked out of their land why not just assimilate them? They must been different since these slavic tribes killed them and kicked them of there land. But I also forgot to mention there are multiple tribes that are genetically close to the krici and have the same origins as them
 
I know this thread hasn’t been bumped in a while but wanted to thank (most) of the contributors for an interesting investigation and conversation. I am J2-M205 with paper trial paternal ancestors in Bari, Italy a few generations back. Unfortunately, the trail for my paternal line ends there. I hope to one day take a higher resolution y haplogroup test to give me more information on top of my 23&me test. My autosomal dna, per 23&me is ~40% south Italian (Bari and Teramo, confirmed with paper trail) and 60% British Isles. I am from the US.

From Dema’s most recent summary it looks like my J2-M205 comes most recently from Rome.

Thanks again!
You have to take Big Y and then put results on the YFull tree. Then you will know where your male relatives are from and you will roughly know their migration path through past times.
 
Anyone can refute this if Im wrong But krici were part of the mataruge tribe until the 7th or 8th century when they split off from Mataruge I heard there were other tribes related to the krici and the mataruge by folklore such as the Bukumiri and the Macure, The Macure also migrated to Croatia and Herzegovina with krici and mataruge could this be sign they were close with each other? while the bukumiri migrated towards northern eastern Montonegro could these tribes be genetically related to each other? Since they were considered a Romanised nomadic tribes and documents such as. Glasnik Zemaljskog muzeja Bosne i Hercegovine u Sarajevu Bulletin du Musée de la République Socialiste de Bosnie- Herzégovine à Sarajevo. Etnologija which considers the bukumiri related to the krici and mataruge by folklore, Im not as good when it comes to genetics as it is for history
Saying that someone is part of a some tribe in 7th or 8th century makes no sense because those tribes are not mentioned then. If someone migrates towards Dalmatia, they are mostly Vlach groups.
 

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