New distribution map of Y-haplogroup E-M81

i think i read somewhere that nowadays almost noone in marseille is completely french with most people having rather recent ancestry from somewhere else. probably similar with most french cities, and north africans are just a few among many others.
france was always quite cosmopolitan muslim moors likely contributed only little to the e-m81 frequency among "native" french.

Yes
As i am not going to mesure how french
A person is ..:unsure:
I believe that if s person who lived in marsile for example :from 1800AD with ancestors from sardinia and corsica
Who
Want to identify as french
absorbed and adopted french culture language
marry a french woman
(that is what happen with some of the algerians like danny boon his mother is french his father kabyle algerian)
Than i see this person as french as can be
But i am not french so i can't decide for french people how to see a person
Just expressing my opinion :unsure:
 
the question is how much of e-m81 haplotypes
are related to the muslim rule of iberia
or they are more ancient like dated to roman period/ carthegenians :unsure:

p.s
i am not familier with spanish history
but if there was a mass conversion to christianity of the muslim invaders
than it could explain some of those e-m81:unsure:


conversion was in 1492

those that did not want to convert went to portugal and then netherlands
-or oran africa and then genoa italy
- or the valencia ones went to venice but then moved on to the levant or augsburg germany via the german merchants in veneice
 
Is there any totally Spanish user in the genetics forums who is E-M81 from the Muslim era or in its defect of early time Spanish or French?

There is a lot of talk but where they are, there should be some on the net.
 
conversion was in 1492

those that did not want to convert went to portugal and then netherlands
-or oran africa and then genoa italy
- or the valencia ones went to venice but then moved on to the levant or augsburg germany via the german merchants in veneice

Interestingly, although some critical voices were raised about Christian Europe, the expulsion was also an attempt to end the idea that ran through Europe about the questionable Christianity of Spain because of the permanence of the Moors. As with the expulsion of the Jews in 1492, the Hispanic Monarchy sought to shake off its reputation as a country of converts and Muslim heritage.

After a year of preparation, the first Moors expelled were those of the Kingdom of
Valencia (the decree was made public on September 22, 1609), followed by those of
Andalusia (January 10, 1610),
Extremadura and the two Castiles (July 10, 1610),
in the Crown of Castile, and those of the Crown of Aragon (May 29, 1610).

Although the economic damage in Castile was not evident in the short term, the depopulation aggravated the demographic crisis of this kingdom that was unable to generate the population required to exploit the New World and to integrate the armies of the Habsburgs, where the Castilians formed their military elite.

The Moors, on the other hand, did not dissolve at sea and those who survived the violence that accompanied their expulsion ended up scattered throughout North Africa, Turkey, and other Muslim countries. Many Moorish peasants were then forced to become Berber pirates who used their knowledge of the Mediterranean coasts to perpetrate attacks against Spain for more than a century.

https://www.abc.es/espana/20141202/abci-expulsion-moriscos-espana-201412011928.html
 
Interestingly, although some critical voices were raised about Christian Europe, the expulsion was also an attempt to end the idea that ran through Europe about the questionable Christianity of Spain because of the permanence of the Moors. As with the expulsion of the Jews in 1492, the Hispanic Monarchy sought to shake off its reputation as a country of converts and Muslim heritage.

After a year of preparation, the first Moors expelled were those of the Kingdom of
Valencia (the decree was made public on September 22, 1609), followed by those of
Andalusia (January 10, 1610),
Extremadura and the two Castiles (July 10, 1610),
in the Crown of Castile, and those of the Crown of Aragon (May 29, 1610).

Although the economic damage in Castile was not evident in the short term, the depopulation aggravated the demographic crisis of this kingdom that was unable to generate the population required to exploit the New World and to integrate the armies of the Habsburgs, where the Castilians formed their military elite.

The Moors, on the other hand, did not dissolve at sea and those who survived the violence that accompanied their expulsion ended up scattered throughout North Africa, Turkey, and other Muslim countries. Many Moorish peasants were then forced to become Berber pirates who used their knowledge of the Mediterranean coasts to perpetrate attacks against Spain for more than a century.

https://www.abc.es/espana/20141202/abci-expulsion-moriscos-espana-201412011928.html


Thanks for information
On dates and places from which moors
Were expelled (y)
So that force me to ask again so from which date
E-m81 entered iberia (i am asking you as a spaniard who knows spanish history) ?

The presence of e-m81 in catlonians in the link i gave above and more than that
In pasiego from cantabria makes this haplogroup history extremely interesting:unsure:
 
Thanks for information
On dates and places from which moors
Were expelled (y)
So that force me to ask again so from which date
E-m81 entered iberia (i am asking you as a spaniard who knows spanish history) ?
The presence of e-m81 in catlonians in the link i gave above and more than that
In pasiego from cantabria makes this haplogroup history extremely interesting:unsure:

Well, don't think so, I'm a big fan of dates and numbers, I don't like numbers very much. By the figures I see in the box subtracting and seeing the little that should have remained and from those years to date with those numbers it is impossible that they would have transformed the Spanish gene pool, it would be quite the opposite.

They were Muslims but a great number should be native converted to the Islam so that also all are not to be taken over by E-M81

I do not know if the skull of the Camino de Lleseras in Madrid was a stallion or the suspicious sub-Saharan L-skulls, it would have been a super-numerous population so that millennia later it would happen that their haplogroups outside Europe were better preserved than the rest of the population of those times.

There are many things that don't fit me and many interests outside of genetics.

------------------------------------------
How many people were affected by the expulsion? Lapeyre made an overall assessment of the number of Moriscos on the eve of the expulsion and the numbers of those expelled

REGIONES
moriscos
expulsados
Valencia
135.000
117.464
Aragón
61.000
60.818
Cataluña
5.000
3.716
Castilla y Extremadura
45.000
44.625
Murcia
16.000
13.552
Andalucía del Guadalquivir
30.000
29.939
Reino de Granada
3.000
2.026
Canarias
1.000
TOTAL
296.000
272.140


Of the almost three hundred thousand Moors that he estimated were living in Spain on the eve of the expulsion, two thirds lived in the Crown of Aragon and one third in Castile. The Kingdom of Valencia had 45% of the total, followed by Aragon with 20%. Of the three hundred thousand, some two hundred and seventy-five were expelled; of the rest, many died in uprisings in Valencia, and a few thousand remained in Catalonia and Murcia, and to a lesser extent in Granada and Castile.


But quite a few of the expelled returned, both by sea and by land. The government made every effort to locate and punish them, as Professor Lapeyre explains in detail. Throughout the Peninsula, the hunt for returned or non-immigrant Moors began, but the search was especially intense in the coastal areas: in Valencia, in Murcia, in Andalusia, in Mallorca... Let's see some examples: Mr. Luis Fajardo, in charge of the expulsion through Cartagena, sends a list of those he has prosecuted. One of them, a certain Ginés García, who returned from the Barbary, is condemned to death in accordance with royal orders. He believes that the punishment should be softened and that strong men should be exchanged for galleys and women for flogging and expulsion. Only in case of recidivism is he in favor of executing them


https://books.openedition.org/ausonius/1809?lang=es
 
yes i was in marseilles when i was 22 years old that was 13 years ago lol:)
and there were indeed many algerians there but i also saw many italians
and armenians
i liked marseilles it fealt very cosmopolitan i didn't fealt stranger there .....:)

yes the people in this research are with french surname :cool-v:


2. Materials and methods

Sample collection was performed drawing blood of unrelated male individuals with French surname after informed consent.

source:

https://www.fsigeneticssup.com/article/S1875-1768(09)00234-0/fulltext



p.s
some branches of e-m81 could be pretty old in france 300-500 AD :cool-v:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY9753/


https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A1152/

but i am open minded to the nimes e-m81 samples that could be somehow related to
auvergne :)




Maybe that, I don’t know. The right is that the Moors reached to Pyrenees and South French.

Abstract

The rapid Arab-Islamic conquest during the early Middle Ages led to major political and cultural changes in the Mediterranean world. Although the early medieval Muslim presence in the Iberian Peninsula is now well documented, based in the evaluation of archeological and historical sources, the Muslim expansion in the area north of the Pyrenees has only been documented so far through textual sources or rare archaeological data. Our study provides the first archaeo-anthropological testimony of the Muslim establishment in South of France through the multidisciplinary analysis of three graves excavated at Nimes. First, we argue in favor of burials that followed Islamic rites and then note the presence of a community practicing Muslim traditions in Nimes. Second, the radiometric dates obtained from all three human skeletons (between the 7th and the 9th centuries AD) echo historical sources documenting an early Muslim presence in southern Gaul (i.e., the first half of 8th century AD). Finally, palaeogenomic analyses conducted on the human remains provide arguments in favor of a North African ancestry of the three individuals, at least considering the paternal lineages. Given all of these data, we propose that the skeletons from the Nimes burials belonged to Berbers integrated into the Umayyad army during the Arab expansion in North Africa. Our discovery not only discusses the first anthropological and genetic data concerning the Muslim occupation of the Visigothic territory of Septimania but also highlights the complexity of the relationship between the two communities during this period.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4765927/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/l... zoom&p=PMC3&id=4765927_pone.0148583.g001.jpg



 
I have read many hypotheses about the origin of the Pasiego. The Pasiegos practice the pole vault and I have remembered that in the Canary Islands it is also practiced since ancient times.

Pasiegos

Canarios

watch
 
Pasiego are also interesting
They have signifcant e-m81 (17% dont think it is from moors in them)
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1046/j.1469-1809.2003.00045.x
And some of them show roman
Faces who can fit passolini movies������
https://www.alamy.com/miera-valley-valles-pasiegos-cantabria-spain-europe-image235857873.html

There are several theories that try to find an explanation for their origins and their own multi-ethnic character. The easiest to assign and widespread legend throughout the peninsula for other groups suspected of accusing impurity is the one that sees that these haplogroups were introduced by the relocation of Mozarabic populations (during the Reconquest ) or, more difficult still, by the settlement of Moorish population in various areas of the old Crown of Castile, to disperse these populations after the Revolt of the Alpujarras in the old Kingdom of Granada . However, these were made in historical times that were collected in documentation, and the mountains of Pas and its jurisdiction prohibited since the reign of theCatholic kings the residence in the valleys of people of heretical religion or converts . Likewise, the importance of the pig in the traditional diet of the Pasiegos should be highlighted, this being excluded from the diets of the Moors typical of the Muslim religion.
Modern genetic research has found them affinities with North Africa. In Haplogroups of the male Y chromosome in the DNA , a percentage of 41% of the so-called " berber " E1b1b1b (M81) , characteristic of the Maghreb and present in a minority way in southern parts of the European continent, has been found. [ 6 ] The rest of the male haplogroups are mostly the most common in Western Europe, although haplogroup G and R1a are also present.(7.3% and 18.3% respectively) rare in Western Europe, being in Eastern Europe where they are more common. It is also known, the settlement of soldiers of Slavic origin, in Al-Andalus territories, as part of the Muslim armies. However, the main haplogroup of the male Y chromosome is, as in the rest of Western Europe, R1b1a2 (R-M269), which reaches 45.8% of the pasiega population.
Its relationship with distant human populations is also marked, through female mitochondrial DNA in its haplogroup U6 (more common also in Africa) and haplogroup V, which is believed to be its oldest and precursor human element, since both are also found. among other populations of Atlantic Europe, and it is believed that they are the ones that migrated towards the European North after the last Ice Age, at the beginning of the Mesolithic, being found among the Lapps (Saami) in a higher percentage, but with less internal genetic variation, of where their affiliation is evident as "minor shoots" and later, although demographically they are more numerous today than in the Iberian Peninsula. [ 7 ]

(7) Genetic history of Europe

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasiego
 
There are several theories that try to find an explanation for their origins and their own multi-ethnic character. The easiest to assign and widespread legend throughout the peninsula for other groups suspected of accusing impurity is the one that sees that these haplogroups were introduced by the relocation of Mozarabic populations (during the Reconquest ) or, more difficult still, by the settlement of Moorish population in various areas of the old Crown of Castile, to disperse these populations after the Revolt of the Alpujarras in the old Kingdom of Granada . However, these were made in historical times that were collected in documentation, and the mountains of Pas and its jurisdiction prohibited since the reign of theCatholic kings the residence in the valleys of people of heretical religion or converts . Likewise, the importance of the pig in the traditional diet of the Pasiegos should be highlighted, this being excluded from the diets of the Moors typical of the Muslim religion.
Modern genetic research has found them affinities with North Africa. In Haplogroups of the male Y chromosome in the DNA , a percentage of 41% of the so-called " berber " E1b1b1b (M81) , characteristic of the Maghreb and present in a minority way in southern parts of the European continent, has been found. [ 6 ] The rest of the male haplogroups are mostly the most common in Western Europe, although haplogroup G and R1a are also present.(7.3% and 18.3% respectively) rare in Western Europe, being in Eastern Europe where they are more common. It is also known, the settlement of soldiers of Slavic origin, in Al-Andalus territories, as part of the Muslim armies. However, the main haplogroup of the male Y chromosome is, as in the rest of Western Europe, R1b1a2 (R-M269), which reaches 45.8% of the pasiega population.
Its relationship with distant human populations is also marked, through female mitochondrial DNA in its haplogroup U6 (more common also in Africa) and haplogroup V, which is believed to be its oldest and precursor human element, since both are also found. among other populations of Atlantic Europe, and it is believed that they are the ones that migrated towards the European North after the last Ice Age, at the beginning of the Mesolithic, being found among the Lapps (Saami) in a higher percentage, but with less internal genetic variation, of where their affiliation is evident as "minor shoots" and later, although demographically they are more numerous today than in the Iberian Peninsula. [ 7 ]

(7) Genetic history of Europe

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasiego



yes but except the lebaniegos
other canatabrians also show significant e-m81
from same paper pdf :

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdo...950547B?doi=10.1.1.584.4253&rep=rep1&type=pdf

thats why i think it is older it is not only limited to pasiegos :unsure:

https://i.imgur.com/moW31yQ.png
 
conversion was in 1492
those that did not want to convert went to portugal and then netherlands
-or oran africa and then genoa italy
- or the valencia ones went to venice but then moved on to the levant or augsburg germany via the german merchants in veneice
yes this thread is about e-m81
but under rare branch of e-m84 called e-y60961
which i belong :)
there are 2 branches:
one is a mizrahi - palestinian
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y125227/
and the other one almost pure sefhardi members (even the moroccan guy have sefhardi heritage , only 1 saudi guy is not sefhardi)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y62418/

and match pretty well the migration of those expelled:
1)to portugal and from there migration to netherlands and netherlands antilles
2)also to ottoman empires teritorry ( saloniki, istanbul)

p.s
it would be very intersting and surprising to me if i would fall under the sefhardi line
i am waiting for my big y 700
:unsure:
It is possible the snp that is now found in sefhardi
Originated in south levant in the iron age :cool-v:
 
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Yes
As i am not going to mesure how french
A person is ..:unsure:
I believe that if s person who lived in marsile for example :from 1800AD with ancestors from sardinia and corsica
Who
Want to identify as french
absorbed and adopted french culture language
marry a french woman
(that is what happen with some of the algerians like danny boon his mother is french his father kabyle algerian)
Than i see this person as french as can be
But i am not french so i can't decide for french people how to see a person
Just expressing my opinion :unsure:


There is your proper feeling and the others feelings about you!
The question is not the social/political/cultural/psychological aspects only but the depth of time in history you want to address.
It's true Marseille and as a whole the Provence/Niçois region was already greatly impacted by Corsican (ethnically not French) and Italian people, before the big imput of "Rapatriés" from decolonised Ageria (a lot of Spanish + Italian people + Sephardic Jews).

I think Y-I-M81 is old in W-Europe (principally the Southwest), even before the Moorish imput, but when I see the %'s in Northern France, I doubt it could be so old there: and ONE male lineage bearing a French surname is not a sufficient guarantee of local origin, indeed. Knowing France, I think there have not been any serious strive to refine ancestry.
Ile-de-France has been a zinc since very ancient times, but it has exploded these last three generations. So, except you focalise upon peasants, very rare today in Île-de-France, you are sure to capture DNA of whole France plus Europe, in some proportions.
Île-de-France could show some imput of Bretons and roughly said "Auvergnats" (Auvergne+Rouergue) at the Y-haplos level?
 
There is your proper feeling and the others feelings about you!
The question is not the social/political/cultural/psychological aspects only but the depth of time in history you want to address.
It's true Marseille and as a whole the Provence/Niçois region was already greatly impacted by Corsican (ethnically not French) and Italian people, before the big imput of "Rapatriés" from decolonised Ageria (a lot of Spanish + Italian people + Sephardic Jews).

I think Y-I-M81 is old in W-Europe (principally the Southwest), even before the Moorish imput, but when I see the %'s in Northern France, I doubt it could be so old there: and ONE male lineage bearing a French surname is not a sufficient guarantee of local origin, indeed. Knowing France, I think there have not been any serious strive to refine ancestry.
Ile-de-France has been a zinc since very ancient times, but it has exploded these last three generations. So, except you focalise upon peasants, very rare today in Île-de-France, you are sure to capture DNA of whole France plus Europe, in some proportions.
Île-de-France could show some imput of Bretons and roughly said "Auvergnats" (Auvergne+Rouergue) at the Y-haplos level?


i only saw peasents in the south provence area
so you think there y haplogroups should reflect more native ? :)
e-m81 is low in provence only 2.2% it is a region in france where
the dominant e1b1b1 is e-v13 8.8% if i go by the french surname research above
in my opinion it could be related to greek colonies in anceint time :unsure:

asking you as french person
do the algerians in france are adopting french culture or they are trying to force there muslim
culture relgion on native french just asking ?

p.s
when i have been in farming area in provence since i worked in a farm there
but my trip there was many years ago so things might have changed
 
i only saw peasents in the south provence area
so you think there y haplogroups should reflect more native ? :)
e-m81 is low in provence only 2.2% it is a region in france where
the dominant e1b1b1 is e-v13 8.8% if i go by the french surname research above
in my opinion it could be related to greek colonies in anceint time :unsure:

asking you as french person
do the algerians in france are adopting french culture or they are trying to force there muslim
culture relgion on native french just asking ?

p.s
when i have been in farming area in provence since i worked in a farm there
but my trip there was many years ago so things might have changed

There was also a Moorish kingdom there, but the effect couldn't have been very large if E-M81 is so low.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraxinetum
 
Interesting ������
I guess 86 years is not enough
To left a true genetic mark ������


here is a research from back in 2012 yes not new

but inline with the huge research on 1200 sardinians
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5500864/
who found 5.8% e-m81 :)

any way the 2012 research i post found also between 5-6% E-m35( * e-m123 , e-m78)
on 260 sample from north central sardina :cool-v:
here :





regions in sardinia from where 260 samples were taken :
41431_2012_Article_BFejhg201222_Fig1_HTML.jpg


Geographical distribution of the places of birth of the Sardinian sample. Nuorese: purple; Sassari: green; Baronia: pink; Ogliastra: deep blue; Marghine-planargia: light blue; Oristano: red.

y haplogroups :

SNPHaplogroupFrequency
(a) a
A0.77
M35E1b1b16.54
M78E1b1b1a0.38
M123E1b1b1c1.92
F0.38
G10
I2a*1.54
M26I2a142.31
J(xJ2)5.77
J24.23
M67J2a21.54
M102J2b1.54
K(xL,M,N,O,P)1.54
R1a*1.54
M17R1a12.69
M18R1b1a11.15
M269R1b1b215
R21.15
Total260




source:

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201222
 
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Interesting ������
I guess 86 years is not enough
To left a true genetic mark ������


here is a research from back in 2012 yes not new

but inline with the huge research on 1200 sardinians
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5500864/
who found 5.8% e-m81 :)

any way the 2012 research i post found also between 5-6% E-m35( * e-m123 , e-m78)
on 260 sample from north central sardina :cool-v:
here :





regions in sardinia from where 260 samples were taken :
41431_2012_Article_BFejhg201222_Fig1_HTML.jpg


Geographical distribution of the places of birth of the Sardinian sample. Nuorese: purple; Sassari: green; Baronia: pink; Ogliastra: deep blue; Marghine-planargia: light blue; Oristano: red.

y haplogroups :

SNPHaplogroupFrequency
(a) a
A0.77
M35E1b1b16.54
M78E1b1b1a0.38
M123E1b1b1c1.92
F0.38
G10
I2a*1.54
M26I2a142.31
J(xJ2)5.77
J24.23
M67J2a21.54
M102J2b1.54
K(xL,M,N,O,P)1.54
R1a*1.54
M17R1a12.69
M18R1b1a11.15
M269R1b1b215
R21.15
Total260




source:

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201222

A lot of that need have nothing to do with the Phoenicians, if that's what you're thinking. Sardinia came under North African influence later on as well.

Plus, Fraxinet was conquered via Spain; the forces might have included some converts.
 
do you think it arrived in sardinia in roman times ?
or is it carthegenian ?
i always thought most carthegenian colonies in sardinia
where in the south of sardinia ( not releveant to the research i posted as the 260 sample from north central sardinia):unsure:
 
do you think it arrived in sardinia in roman times ?
or is it carthegenian ?
i always thought most carthegenian colonies in sardinia
where in the south of sardinia ( not releveant to the research i posted as the 260 sample from north central sardinia):unsure:

People move around. :)

Without seeing the subgroups of E-M35 it's difficult to say anything very conclusive, yes? Is it mostly E-M81 or not?

If it's E-M81, one has to remember that the Carthaginians were in control and were the elites from about 500 BC to their last revolt against Rome inn about 100 BC.

Also, the Carthaginian settlements dotted not only the southern coast but the west coast. Fleeing inland after fighting the Romans makes sense to me.

Tharos was the capital of Carthaginian Sardinia.

ClDuQLD.png


Then, there was the era of the Saracen raids for a couple of hundred years. Many of the coastal cities had to be abandoned, as happened all over Mediterranean north coast, and people established new cities further inland.

Given all this history I think 5% is pretty low.
 
this could be an ancient e-m81 remain
i do wonder why they only checked his mtdna which was u5b2c1 ........:rolleyes:
the young man of byrsa

phoenician-man.jpg
 

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