New distribution map of Y-haplogroup E-M81

from the albanian data base

last 2 pages of enteries

small albanian e-m81 cluster ( in south kosovo north albania)


i sent an emaill to the administrator
and he also wished to know the rout and time this small cluster arrived
to albania
but he told me that because those people came from poor villages
they can't afford big y ( crazy prices )
bummer ..... ( could be ottoman period, or roman auxiliry):unsure:
Hello Maciamo,
Your articles on the various HGs are very good but I wish for more detail in the references. In the article on E1b1b, section E-M81 you claim that some study of 101 Pasiegos included data on E-M81. Could you please share the reference to the literature? Thanks. Sergio
Berberid??? It's ancient semite canaanite haplogroup, there was nothing called "berber" in the entire history of the Maghreb but Libyans, Punics/Canaanites, Africans, Arabs, Maghrebis, North Africans. Stop using this racist french colonial slur.

'Berberid'? by Frenchies? I don't know, but 'Berber' (Berbère) I know. It's a bit off topic, but I don't see any racism in this word in French, only an approximate and imprecise way to name populations considered as "autochtones" and not Arab" in origin, whatever the accuracy of these distinctions. But if racism has existed (and at some scale, it has), it was not in this term, for sure! Just a "bag" term for diverse pops of North-Africa. It is not safe to put too much emotion into words. It leads to mistakings and sterile oppositions.
Two other papers (see here on M81 origin, two very little known hypotheses:

1) The male lines of the Maghreb: Phoenicians, Carthage, Muslim conquest and Berbers by Wim Penninx

2) "How Eurasia Was Born" HOW EURASIA WAS BORN -A Provisional Atlas of prehistoric Eurasia based on genetic data supporting the farming-language dispersal model- CSABA-BARNABÁS HORVÁTH by Csaba Barnabas Horvath
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Distribution of the haplogroups of the Y-chromosome in the maqbara "of Pamplona (8th centurey )

paper in spanish unfortuntely:disappointed:

35% E in 8th centurey muslim remains

press on the pdf :


a confirmed e-m81 case in the paper individual 107 :
this guanche individual posted by adamm from (anthrogenica)
give me zidane vibe:)
( maybe he was e-m81 like zidane):unsure:

Guanche from the Canary Islands (IronAge/ModernAge):

"Adult male from Anaza Santa cruz de Tenerife (north-eastern Tenerife)."


the neolithic north african remains
taken from e-pf2431 blog

Rui Martiniano, Bianca de Sanctis, Pille Hallast, Richard Durbin,
December 20, 2020
A very important publication which inserts in the haplogroup tree all the ancient DNA samples, we find the samples of Ifri n’Amr (IAM4, IAM5 and IAM7):


IAM4 and IAM7 are E-L19* (positive for L19, negative for PF2431 and M81)
IAM5 is PF2535* (positive for PF2535 and negative for M81)


Here is an excerpt from the article:

"Three Moroccan Early Neolithic samples carry E1b1b1b1-M310.1 lineages [17], with the lineage of sample IAM.5 further refined to E1b1b1b1a1∼-PF2535 with a single supporting marker. In our analysis, they were placed ancestrally to present-day Mozabite and Saharawi North African lineages (Figure 5B), which is in agreement with the finding from autosomal analyzes that these samples comprised an endemic Maghrebi element still retained in present-day North African populations "

Here M310.1 is equivalent to L19.
Of the 84 snps equivalent to M81, only one was found positive in the old IAM5 dna. It should be remembered that 30,933 snps were found to be positive while each human being has between 3,000 and 5,000 positive snps. Of these 30,933 snps, nearly 28,000 are false positives, it was suspected that PF2535 was the same.
All of the AMIs if related to each other, one would be inclined to think that this small group as a whole had identical results and that they were all L19*. I remind you that all the samples from the Tafoghalt site are all E-M78*, similarly for those from Raqefet Cave (Natufian) which are all E-Z830*. I am quoting what IAM study author R. Fregel said about IAM5 and which goes in this direction:

"IAM.5 only showed one derived SNP, while the remaining were ancestral. We used this evidence to propose that the lineage present in IAM was ancestral to modern E-M81. And it makes sense, IAM samples are around 7,000 years old, while coalescence age for E-M81 is much younger.
Regarding the use of low-coverage data, you have to be careful when analyzing the data. We always classify the mutations taking into account if they can be related to DNA damage (C to T, G to A). The derived SNP in 557 can't be produced by cytosine deamination, so we considered it. Are the mutations that make no sense attributable to DNA damage?"

Which explains why this sample in the article is defined L19*.

In conclusion: What should be remembered is that the majority of the North African population belongs to the L19 (PF2431+M81) sub-haplogroup which was discovered in its ancestral state in skeletons discovered in North Africa and dated at carbon 14 of approximately 7000 years old. It is therefore endogenous to North Africa and has two branches PF2431 and PF2535. It is hoped that other known ancient sites will be studied to gain more information on its history and migrations.

source paper:

so 1 of those 3 was pre-e-m81 :)
maybe that could explain some e-m81 in france :unsure:
if we see in the 6th century an autosomaly north african case that far in north france
fascinating and cool :cool-v:

Genetic population structure across Brittany and the Loire basin

European genetic ancestry originates from three main ancestral populations - Western hunter-gatherers, early European farmers and Yamnaya Eurasian herders - whose edges geographically met in present-day France. Despite its central role to our understanding of how the ancestral populations interacted and gave rise to modern population structure, the population history of France has remained largely understudied. Here, we analysed 856 high-coverage whole-genome sequences along with genome-wide genotyping data of 3,234 present-day individuals from the northern half of France and merged them with publicly available present-day and ancient Europe-wide genotype datasets. We also analysed, for the first time, the whole-genome sequences of six medieval individuals (300-1100 CE) from Western France to gain insights into the genetic impact of what is commonly known as the Migration Period in Europe. We found extensive fine-scale population structure across Brittany and the downstream Loire basin, emphasizing the need for investigating local populations to better understand the distribution of rare and putatively deleterious variants across space. Overall, we observed an increased population differentiation between the northern and southern sides of the river Loire, which are characterised by different proportions of steppe vs. Neolithic-related ancestry. Samples from Western Brittany carry the largest levels of steppe ancestry and show high levels of allele sharing with individuals associated with the Bell Beaker complex, levels that are only comparable with those found in populations lying on the northwestern edges of Europe. Together, our results imply that present-day individuals from Western Brittany retain substantial legacy of the genetic changes that occurred in Northwestern Europe following the arrival of the Bell Beaker people c. 2500 BCE. Such genetic legacy may explain the sharing of disease-related alleles with other present-day populations from Western Britain and Ireland.


In addition, we sequenced six individuals with dates ranging from the 4th to the 12th century CE, from Pays-dela-
Loire (Fig. 4a)
to increase our resolution in detecting changes in ancestry during the
Mediaeval Period. PCA resulting from projecting the ancient individuals onto the principal
component space of modern variation shows that most of the samples fall well within the
distribution of present-day French (Fig. S4.1). Out of the six individuals, one (fra009, Table S4.1)
likely represents a migrant with genetic affinities to present-day North Africans. This individual,
dated from the 5th-6th century CE, was found in an archaeological site located in an ancient
town likely built during the Roman period (see SOM, Supplementary archaeological details).
Trading networks involving this town may explain the presence of North African migrants so far
To test whether French Mediaeval samples from the 3-4th century CE and samples from
the 6-7th century CE significantly differ in their genetic affinities to other ancient European
populations we computed the f4-statistics of the form f4(Mbuti, ancient European sample;
sLoire_France_3-4cCE, sLoire_France_6-7cCE). We found no significant differences in allele
sharing between individuals from early (300-550 CE, fra001 and fra004) and later Mediaeval
Period (600-700 CE, fra016 and fra017, Table S4.2). Therefore, we considered individuals from
both periods to represent the same population and refer to them as “Mediaeval French”

page 14 in pdf

We found Mediaeval samples from Western France to carry generally less steppe ancestry than their geographical close present-day populations (Fig. 4b). This is consistent with a model in which the introduction of steppe ancestry in Northern French ~2000 BCE remained restricted to this region for millennia. Nevertheless, we recall that Early Mediaeval samples display substantial genetic heterogeneity as two samples carry contrasting proportions of steppe- vs. Neolithic-ancestry (fra016 and fra017) and one sample (fra009) did not fit the genetic diversity of present-day France. Instead, this sample seems to originate from North Africa and provides evidence for long-distance migration between the northern part of France and northern Africa, as early as the Early Mediaeval period (~5-6 century CE). Finally, we found a lack of genetic continuity between Mediaeval French and Iberian populations dating from the first millennium BCE (P < 0.05, results not shown). Signals of genetic continuity were only found with Iberian individuals archaeologically associated with Germanic invasions, suggesting that until late Antiquity and Early Mediaeval Period (3th-10th century CE) French and Iberians might have kept low levels of gene flow

That might be relevant for e-m81
Ancient dna from iron age tunisia :cool-v:

They didn't post the y results in the article
And only 4 males from the tunisian iron age site
But when bam file ready maybe someone
Could have a look
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That might be relevant for e-m81
Ancient dna from iron age tunisia :cool-v:
They didn't post the y results in the article
And only 4 males from the tunisian iron age site
But when bam file ready maybe someone
Could have a look

Unfortuntley they all turned j:LOL:

Posted by anthtogenica user :
2x J2b2
1x J2b1
1x J2a
Still got no info on the J2b2s.

That took me by surprise
I know e-m81 tmrca might be younger than
Those remains

But i truly expected e-v65 to show up.
And now when i think about
It i can't rule out that septimus severus emperor
Could also belong to y haplogroup j
His direct paternal line was punic
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this paper :


sao-paulo state (17 y-str predicted by negven) 6.9% e-m81 11/158

h73-sao-paulo- e-m81

h78-aracatuba- e-m81





h126-vale do paraiba -e-m81



h131-sao jose do rio-preto -e-m81


( likely arrived to this state with portuguase immigration and colonization )
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e-m81 in chile regions

6% in concepcion chile ( 17 y-str predicted by nevgen the haplotypes are clearly e-m81)










7/196 3.5% e-m81

santiago de chile




3/196 1.5% e-m81


03-0430- e-m81












12/198 6% e-m81










9/194 4.6% e-m81

punta arenas






4/194 2% e-m81

source paper:
i can't leave e-L19 /e-m81 aside
i guess it is the e-z827 connection;)

i don't think i ever posted about this medieval individual
and if i did somewhere else he does deserves a mention here in this thread

from the paper:
Given that there are no reads covering any of its diagnostic positions, we cannot exclude the possibility that UE2298/MS060 could belong to the E–M81 lineage (Supplementary Fig. S6). Using pathPhynder44 to investigate his Y-chromosomal affinity with present-day populations, UE2298/MS060 was positioned in a branch that harbours Iberian and North African E–M310-derived lineages, but with no support for membership to a more downstream lineage within this clade (Fig. 2; Supplementary Fig. S7).


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Do you know the percentage of E-M81 in Saudi, Yemen, etc.?

Given the movement of Saudi tribes to the Levant following the rise of Islam, much more in some areas than others, if it's found on the Saudi peninsula I would expect to find it in places like Jordan and Palestine.
Do you know the percentage of E-M81 in Saudi, Yemen, etc.?

Given the movement of Saudi tribes to the Levant following the rise of Islam, much more in some areas than others, if it's found on the Saudi peninsula I would expect to find it in places like Jordan and Palestine.

good question;)

extremely low

saudi arabia - 0%

yemen- 0%

on the other hand when i look at yfull ( which as we know is based on commercial testers i do see saudi arabian flags and even some yemen flags):

so it must exist in those 2 countries but to very low %
if i would have to guess the source of e-m81 in jordan( amman) , lebanon and syria
might be mainly from egypt instead of the arabian peninsula
probably during fatimid time

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