slavic, germanic and others for the fun

[Yetos]

Ok

That word is very different in most,
the word mountain, hill and the middle one

in my language Greek
top of the mountain κορυφη korufe probably from summerian kur
high mountains ορος οροσειρα oroseira cognates with Sierra
middle mountain βουνο buno\vuno ........................
small mountain, hill Λοφος lofos ???????????

I am interested cause seems to have enough changes in IE languages,
plz response with your country words for the cases

 

[MOESAN]

in breton the meanings are as a rule very unprecise :
menez (<< monid) : « mountain », but also « hill » (in western Aremorica, there is no mountain!)
krec'h, krec'henn, ancient form kenec'h (<< knekk) : « hill »
brenn (brann) : « hill »
bre : « big hill » (ancient, obsolete)
motenn (<< french motte << motta) : « small hill »
run (reun) : « hill »
ros : « rocky fallowy hill or rocky fallowy slope » for someones, or « steep side of a hill exposed to sunlight » - in welsh the today meaning of rhôs is « moor » (link with the « fallow » meaning?)
tarros : « steep side of a high place »
torgenn : « hill, relief »
tossenn / tostenn : « mound, hillock »
tuchenn : « mound, hillock »
surely in ancient time every name wore a distinct detailed meaning but today...
I 'm not sure all the different names are from previously distinct languages, not-I-Ean...
the credit we put in a localization of the I-Ean cradle has some importance here : did this proto-language formed in a mountainous region ? So the language could have had a lot of precise namings for every kind of relief...
&: bronn is the « teat » (tezh << teth << *tett- : « cow teat » : a link with a) *br- names for relief, OR b) a link with germanics bourne, burn, born, bronn, brunn (« source », meaning) ? All bets ;

 

[Dalmat]

Ok

That word is very different in most,
the word mountain, hill and the middle one

in my language Greek
top of the mountain κορυφη korufe probably from summerian kur
high mountains ορος οροσειρα oroseira cognates with Sierra
middle mountain βουνο buno\vuno ........................
small mountain, hill Λοφος lofos ???????????

I am interested cause seems to have enough changes in IE languages,
plz response with your country words for the cases

tip of the mountain; vrh, but korufe seem similar to our krov, which means roof, and sometimes roof is used to describe top of the mountain
mountain; planina or gora. chain of mountains, or mountain ridge; hrbat or gorje
Middle mouintain; brdo or hum
hill; brijeg, breg, brig
smalest form of a hill; brežuljak, diminutive from breg


And there is this, probably smallest level of elevation , we call it škrape, its usually found on karst soil which we call krš

 

[FrankN]

Mountain top, rounded="Kuppe" (Latin cupola, French "couper"-to cut, etc.)
Mountain peak: "(Berg-)Spitze", in the Alps also "Horn" (Matterhorn etc.)
Mountain: "Berg", mountain range "Gebirge", low mountain range also "Wald" (forest, see Black Forest, Bavarian Forest etc.)
Hill: "Hügel", "Anhöhe" (=elevation, compare Engl. high)
Rocky outcrop, cliff: "Klippe" (probably derived from "to clip", to cut by force)

Breton motenn, French motte might be related to Alemannic "Matte, -matt". A "Matte" is a meadow that is mowed in summer for hay, so typically the land close to the village / valley bottom that serves for winter grazing but is empty during summer, when the cattle has been driven further up the mountains.

Greek βουνο buno\vuno might be related to German "Bühne"=stage, tribune. While the modern German word characterises an artificial elevation, it may originally also have been used for natural elevations, e.g. a hill from where a leader speaks to people.

Yetos, you have forgotten the χώρα chōra, which is well recognisable in Slavic gora / grad, and, probably via the "agora", in the choir. When pirates come, you better not find yourself outside (French dehors) the chora's walls...

A nice one is dune (downs), German "Düne", cymr. "din", Italian "duna", Greek θίν, croat. "dina", Albanian "Dune"?. Seems pretty ancient IE. Grimm relates it to an old proto-IE verb "dhun= to rise, to swell; compare tone, sound, German "Dünung" (groundswell) etc

Finally, I give you the Dutch / Danish / North German Geest: Moraines, i.e. glacial material from the last ice age, which can rise quite considerably over the marshy lowlands (see the 72m high Süllberg on the Elbe in Hamburg below, and the view from it across the marshes south of the Elbe).

The name appears to come from gost/gast = dry, unfertile, but that medieval word isn't related to many other word I currently can think of. Heath may be connected, also heathen (praying to which doesn't fall onto fertile soil), but otherwise?

 

[Yetos]

Greek βουνο buno\vuno might be related to German "Bühne"=stage, tribune. While the modern German word characterises an artificial elevation, it may originally also have been used for natural elevations, e.g. a hill from where a leader speaks to people.
Yetos, you have forgotten the χώρα chōra, which is well recognisable in Slavic gora / grad, and, probably via the "agora", in the choir. When pirates come, you better not find yourself outside (French dehors) the chora's walls...
A nice one is dune (downs), German "Düne", cymr. "din", Italian "duna", Greek θίν, croat. "dina", Albanian "Dune"?. Seems pretty ancient IE. Grimm relates it to an old proto-IE verb "dhun= to rise, to swell; compare tone, sound, German "Dünung" (groundswell) etc

the hill from where sopomeone speaks is called Βημα bema Vema
the dunes existed also in my language Greek as Θινες Thines Th- as Thalassa, means the sand hills, cration by wind, mainly next to hill.

χώρα and χωριά and χωρίον and χωράφι, I think has another meaning than Gora.
Χώρα = a country, a comunity center, a big village, it replace the Greek κωμη - κωμοπολις, the head of smaller villages,
Xωριό = village, but has a meaning oof a cut/split neighborhood from the municipal or comunity, κοινοτητα,
Χωρίον = a split/cuten piece of everything
χωράφι = a field that belongs to someone, a split/cutten piece of fertile land from the community for personal usage.
they have a meaning of split/cut, the main or bigger part is χωρα,


Agora has a strange meaning in Greece,
for example in court the lawer is ΑΓΟΡΕΥΕΙ, means speak, but also sells his opinion
When I buy somethink I ΑΓΟΡΑΖΩ,
The proffesor teaching lesson are AΓΟΡΕΥΣΕΙΣ
When I anounce someone I AN'ΑΓΟΡΕΥΩ
When I forbit something I ΑΠ'ΑΓΟΡΕΥΩ.
today has the meaning of Baazar, full of sounds and voices and opinions, than a super-market place where the voice is artifficial by music coming out of big woofers and twitters

I see the connection among Βημα and Buhne
also Dunes and Θινες

 

[Yetos]

Until now I see that in West Europe major words are or have a m-t or br-

I know about Slavic Planina which i think might be connected with mountain plains, or Greek Πλαγια-Πλαγιες
the word exist in Greek as Πλαγια but has a meaning of hill side, a mountain side
λοφοπλαγια Βουνοπλαγια,

Ι Don't know about Βημα and Buhne, although I see a connection
but surely Dunes and θινες I think have even the same meaning, the D-Θ change we find it also and elsewere like Door Θυρα etc,

by what I see seems like North of Alps major is theme Br-
South Of Alps is M-t M-N
East of Alps a -R- or G-R or K-R

about the Moesan's Celtic interestic are the words
Ros and Tarros Torgen
we also found the -R- here with a more clear meaning of Rock
while Tarros and Torgen I don't know about that T- if is lost or if changed
compare Tarros with Αροανια Ορη (Aroania) and Tarros with Gora

I am expecting more from East Europe and Asia words, simply to make readers compare and realize on what and which might local or IE

 

[MOESAN]

I have some reserves concerning certain links you put both (NFrank and Yetos) - not all of them -
I maybe shall do an answer when I've time
concerning Agora I think the basic meaning could be 'opening', 'express himself out', 'open space'... but who knoes

good night, oidhche mhath, nos vad, nos da

 

[MOESAN]

Welsh


mynydd « mountain » -
crug, crugyn « mound » Bret- krugell « tumulus », « little mound »
twmpath « mound », « hillock »
bryn « mount », « hill »
bryncyn « hillock »
twyn / tywyn « sand dune »,« hillock » Bret- tewenn, erin, tunienn « sand dune »
allt « hillock », « hillside » Bret- aot/aod « shore », « coast »
craig « cliff », « rock », « crag » (loan)
dibyn « cliff »
clogwyn « cliff » (clog >> cleg- general « rock » meaning : clegyr – Br kleger)
>> penglog Bret- klopenn « skull » litt- « head stone » !!!
llethr « cliff », « slope »
#
rhos « moor », « plain », « meadow » ! >< Bret- ros : « hillside », « rocky slope »

 

[MOESAN]

Irish gaelic


sliabh « mountain »
sliabhraon « range of mountains »
tulach « mound »
mullóg « mound »
cnocán « mound » see Bret- krec'h(enn) << knekk – Dutch knokke : « cliff » (loan?)
cnoc « hill »
ard « hill » see Welsh allt – Bret- aot/aod
aill « cliff »
dumhach « dune »
+
mointeán « moor »
carn « heap »
cruach « heap » see Bret- krugell + karreg – Welsh crug- + clog- + carreg (???)


Scottish gaelic


sliabh « mountain », « mount »
beinn « mountain », « mount »
monadh « moor », « heath » + « mound »
cruach « pile », « heap » + stack of hay » see irish
tòrr « mound », « large heap »
tom « ant hill »
tolm « tulm » (loan?), « high hillock »
bruach « bank », « edge », « steep », « border » (!)
cnoc /krOhk/ !« knoll », « eminence » see irish
cladach « shore », « beach », « stony shore »
+
clach « roche », « stone »
??? « dune »


I add breton has bern : « heap » (*B-R- ?)

 

[MOESAN]

french

montagne (occ- montanha / mountanyo) « mountain »
mont « mount », « mound », « hill »
colline « hill », « hillock »
éminence « knoll », « hill »
hauteur « height » + « upland »
promontoire « headland »
dune « sand dune »
falaise « cliff »
'serre' << occ- serra (rom- serra/sierra) « highland », « long hill » + « sand dune » in gascon
+
berge (<< berche << pop.Lat- barǐca << celtic gaulish) « (high enough) river bank » << « border »

 

[MOESAN]

Until now I see that in West Europe major words are or have a m-t or br-

I know about Slavic Planina which i think might be connected with mountain plains, or Greek Πλαγια-Πλαγιες
the word exist in Greek as Πλαγια but has a meaning of hill side, a mountain side
λοφοπλαγια Βουνοπλαγια,


Ι Don't know about Βημα and Buhne, although I see a connection
but surely Dunes and θινες I think have even the same meaning, the D-Θ change we find it also and elsewere like Door Θυρα etc,

by what I see seems like North of Alps major is theme Br-
South Of Alps is M-t M-N
East of Alps a -R- or G-R or K-R

about the Moesan's Celtic interestic are the words
Ros and Tarros Torgen
we also found the -R- here with a more clear meaning of Rock
while Tarros and Torgen I don't know about that T- if is lost or if changed
compare Tarros with Αροανια Ορη (Aroania) and Tarros with Gora

I am expecting more from East Europe and Asia words, simply to make readers compare and realize on what and which might local or IE

a root based only upon *-R- seems to me very too confusing , unprecise - in 'tarros' (tar-ros?) / 'torgenn' we could see a °°T-R- group - we have too in breton 'torraod' + 'tornaod' for "cliff" - 'tornaod' could be a popular reforming upon a supposed °turn- ("to turn": turning, curve shore ???but the double -RR- in 'torraod' is curious because we have not °'raod' but 'aod' in it (= "shore", "coast" previously "cliff", "height") -
the root *K-R- seems very more productive, with the *B-R- one - let's keep cautious

 

[Yetos]

a root based only upon *-R- seems to me very too confusing , unprecise - in 'tarros' (tar-ros?) / 'torgenn' we could see a °°T-R- group - we have too in breton 'torraod' + 'tornaod' for "cliff" - 'tornaod' could be a popular reforming upon a supposed °turn- ("to turn": turning, curve shore ???but the double -RR- in 'torraod' is curious because we have not °'raod' but 'aod' in it (= "shore", "coast" previously "cliff", "height") -
the root *K-R- seems very more productive, with the *B-R- one - let's keep cautious

I See

BTW
twmpath « mound », « hillock » is IE and has the meaning of Tomb Greek Τυμβος modern Toumpa, the hill above the grave, an artificial hill where soil was put there to cover the monument,
twyn / tywyn « sand dune »,« hillock » Bret- tewenn, erin, tunienn « sand dune » so it turns to T the other dental *Dunnes *Θινες
cladach « shore », « beach », « stony shore » that word surprise me, comparing that Greeks call the rocky shores, the cliff as Ακται Αχται, the dangerous ones full of rocks and little sand

do you belive that word sierra has IE roots?

''("to turn": turning, curve shore ???but the double -RR- in 'torraod' is curious because we have not °'raod' but 'aod' in it (= "shore", "coast" previously "cliff", "height") -""

Translating the English turn = στροφη to turn = στριβω, but curve is κυρτος , something like a convex also κυρτος -καμπυλος
convex = καμπυλη , convex turns in = Κοιλος convex turns out = κυρτος
hmm a t-k? can't say for sure

 

[Yetos]

OK

my next question

words
Axe
sword
arrow
bow

 

[Dalmat]

OK

my next question

words
Axe
sword
arrow
bow

sikira;sijekira;sekira-axe
mač(mach)-sword
strila;strijela,strela-arrow
luk(luk also means arc, and also funnily enough onion, but onion is with short u, while bow=arc is with long u)-bow

 

[FrankN]

Axe: German Axt. That's simple. More interesting is the relation to axis and axle here. It seems the word originally didn't relate to the instrument as a whole, but only to the joint between a stick and a stone. The stone had always been used, the stick fixed to it was the innovation (just as was joining an axis to a wheel).
Sword: Schwert. Interesting here is the connection to schwer=heavy. Might Slavic mač have applied the same principle (lat. magnus = big) - a sword as a heavy or big knife?
Arrow: Pfeil. Different terms in two otherwise closely related languages. Pfeil is reminding of Latin pila=spear. Who borrowed from whom, I don't know.
Bow: Bogen. Nothing special here.

I don't know if this was your intention, yetos, but I get a feeling that for an assumedly war-like people like Indo-Europeans, there are surprisingly little parallels in the words used for arms. Latin terms (ascia / gladus / sagitta/ arcus) are (except for the axe) again quite different from Germanic and Slavic. What about Greek?

On tarros (rock), I have been wondering if there is a relation to ital. torre (tower).

Agora has a strange meaning in Greece,
for example in court the lawer is ΑΓΟΡΕΥΕΙ, means speak, but also sells his opinion
When I buy somethink I ΑΓΟΡΑΖΩ,
The proffesor teaching lesson are AΓΟΡΕΥΣΕΙΣ
When I anounce someone I AN'ΑΓΟΡΕΥΩ
When I forbit something I ΑΠ'ΑΓΟΡΕΥΩ.
today has the meaning of Baazar, full of sounds and voices and opinions, than a super-market place where the voice is artifficial by music coming out of big woofers and twitters

I had always thought the agora to be the functional (also etymological?) equivalent of the Roman forum. All those Greek derivates appear to relate to activities that were in antiquity carried out in such a place. They are in quintessence urban functions, which brings us back to Slavic hrad/grad. As the choras I am aware of are mountaintop settlements (acropolis), I had assumed that chora (and btw also acro) are somehow related to elevations/ mountains (Slavic gora). But I may be wrong here..

 

[LeBrok]

I don't know if this was your intention, yetos, but I get a feeling that for an assumedly war-like people like Indo-Europeans, there are surprisingly little parallels in the words used for arms. Latin terms (ascia / gladus / sagitta/ arcus) are (except for the axe) again quite different from Germanic and Slavic. What about Greek?

Indeed, how is it possible? Have most of these weapons been developed after the split?

 

[arvistro]

To be honest I can't imagine my Baltic ancestors driving on chariots. Ok, ancient ancestors might be, but R1A in Baltic foresty lands no. Also I dont believe in Slavic R1a getting their expansion via conquest. Slavic people were not much organized according to most sources, East Slavs in Russia asked for vikings to rule them. Byzantian historians said smth similar about South Slavs (as "democratic" with no common ruler/authority).
For sword Latvian word is "zobens" (zobs = tooth, see Russian zub).
Axe - "cirvis". Not sure if IE root, but it is about "cirst" - to cut tree. Finns borrowed it from ancient Baltic and still call it kirves (k in ancient Baltic/Lithuanian = c in modern Latvian). Battle Axe is "āva". Not sure where that comes from, sounds Finno-Ugric but is not. Could be from ancient "aut" - to put shoe on. In general to put something that sticks the thing its put on closely.
Arrow - "bulta". Comes from Germanic borrowing (bolt?). But there is a name "Strēlnieks" - a man who shoots, which has similar root to Slavic "strela" (arrow). Probably "strēle" was initial Baltic word (edit: checked Lithuanian has "strele"). Modern Latvian strēle meaning is best seen in "zemes strēle" - "strip of land". Something long and thin.
Bow - "loks". Comes from Latvian "locīt" (to bend, to bow) or more similar "liekt", es loku = I bend.Interesting enough, Russian synonime is "luk" but they have no verb with similar root. edit: Lithuanian has "lankas" which is probably ancient form of "loks" and "lenkti" = "to bow". This an-uo change seems common for Lithuanian - Latvian and further change uo-u is common for Latvian - Russian.
See - Lith. ranka - Lat. roka (spelled ruoka) - Rus. ruka - hand.

edit:
Interesting word in Latvian is "šaut" - to shoot (šautra - another synonime for arrow, zibens šautra = lightning bolt). In Lithuanian it is "šaudyti". In Slavic that I know it is "strelatj" of different types, so I dont know of common root. In Sweddish is similar word - "skjuta". It is interesting because "šaut" and "shoot" are so close. "Šaut" and "šaudyti" Lith./"šaudīt" Lat sound Baltic, but could be borrowed from (proto)Germanic languages.

 

[FrankN]

Arrow - "bulta". Comes from Germanic borrowing (bolt?). But there is a name "Strēlnieks" - a man who shoots, which has similar root to Slavic "strela" (arrow). Probably "strēle" was initial Baltic word (edit: checked Lithuanian has "strele"). Modern Latvian strēle meaning is best seen in "zemes strēle" - "strip of land". Something long and thin.
edit:
Interesting word in Latvian is "šaut" - to shoot (šautra - another synonime for arrow, zibens šautra = lightning bolt). In Lithuanian it is "šaudyti". In Slavic that I know it is "strelatj" of different types, so I dont know of common root. In Sweddish is similar word - "skjuta". It is interesting because "šaut" and "shoot" are so close. "Šaut" and "šaudyti" Lith./"šaudīt" Lat sound Baltic, but could be borrowed from (proto)Germanic languages.

English bolt / German Bolzen appear in fact to be an old Germanic root. The generic meaning is a short, straight, rounded and planed stick, which was also transferred to the crossbow (but not the bow) projectile.

Slavic "strela" made me curious, as it is reminiscent of German "Strahl" = beam, ray. Even more suspicious is the fact that, aside from German, Dutch, Danish, Swedish and Norwegian all have this word in similar form and meaning, but it is missing in Icelandic. So I checked with Grimm:

1. Pfeil (arrow) is a relatively recent (16th century) borrowing, probably from (church) Latin;
2. Old and middle German, and also Old English, used variants of "Strahl" for arrow. Grimm, already noting the parallels to Slavic and Baltic languages, suggests an ancient borrowing, "the source of which should be sought as far to the east as possible". Interestingly, Strahl/ strela isn't evidenced for Gothic, so we are probably talking about a borrowing during the very early medieval. Does anybody here have an idea of the Hunnic word for arrow? [Arrow in Hungarian is nyil, so the Magyars are probably off the candidate list].
3. The original Germanic word for arrow was Old English earh, Old Norse. ör, Gothic arhvazna, related to Latin arcus = bow, and obviously kept alive in English. Icelandic is interesting here: It uses both ör, and pila for arrow.
4. Finally, it is fascinating how the meaning of "Strahl" shifted from "arrow" to "beam". In a first stage, during the 16th/17th century, "Strahl" appeared in mathematical text books in the sense of a vector. In addition, under the influence of Greek mythology it took over the meaning of lightning, fire-bolt (Zeus throwing fire-bolts at Phaeton, etc. ). Obviously, Humanists were at work here, who may at the same time have introduced or promoted the use of the Latin borrowing "Pfeil". In the 18th and early 19th century, poets discovered the word "Strahl" and extended it to various new meanings - Friedrich Schiller appears to have been especially active in this respect. Finally, 19th century scientists, looking for adequate terminology to describe newly-discovered phenomena such as x-rays, "occupied" the term to such an extent that any reminiscence of its earlier meaning has got lost in Germany.

"šaut" - to shoot, "šautra" - arrow resembles Latin sagitta = arrow, Sagittarius = shooter. Grimm furthermore suggests a relation to Sanskrit "skund" = to project, to eject, which would point at a common IE root. Aside from "to shoot", there is another English word with "sh*t" that may have the same origin.

 

[arvistro]

Wow, very informative post! Thanks, Baron!

 

[Yetos]

Well there are IE words,

But in Greek show much difference from Homeric to Modern, as also the compination with Avestan.

case of Axe,
Axe might be connected with word Axon as FrankN said,
but Axein also means Black and iron in early Iranic,
in ancient Greek we find many words, like
ΛΑβρυς labrus the 2 head axe, from la=stone brus-βρωσις = eat eater, the axe that 'eat' the stone,
also we find Αξις-αξινα, Axis used for dig the ground, to break stones, it must have an Ακις akis (sharp nose)
Πελεκυς used to cut woods, wood have a white colour so probaly that why its name means also white (pale)
there is a theory that is connected with Aryan-Iranian black and iron, Axein Pont = black sea

The bow, here we sea some geometrigal and lingustic elements,
for example the word ΑΟΡ AOR from Homer,
Aor -Αορτη is the central aortic from where the sling, the string was made off
Αορτηρ ις the sling, and many times in Homer most bows archers are named as AOR, Aryan is the Greek termination of Iranian SKuda shooter
in modern we also use word τσεκουρι, which is Slavic imported, but I believe has another meaning, probably it had or gave the meaning of Security. Kings were guarding by Security with axes/pikes, Greek word Αξιωματικος officer means Axe carrier.
the linguistic of Οξυς and Ακις
Οxin is the acid enviroment, Oxos the vinegar, οΞυς is the sharp, the acid. for example a sharp pain is οΞυς πονος, acid pain.
Akis is the sharp nose, the nose of a needle, something that penetrates
in Homer we see arrows to be named as ΞΙΦΕΕΙ either from OXYS-OΧΙΣ either from AKIS
But generally the word Βελος from virb βαλω (same root with Dia-bolo) Velos = arrow
the bow is TΟΞΟΝ bow=arc=Τοξον, Ι really can't find any more information about that word except the virb Τανυω and Tεινω, i stretch, English tanner must have the flat meaning of that word,

knifes,
the Word is not Slavic but ancient,
for sword we find many from antique,
Μαχαιραν the small sword, used to cut or to smash, usage by hit and cut,
Ξιφος a bigger than machaira, used also to penetrate, since is sharp οξυ-ακις
in modern we also find word spathi Σπαθι, I do not know roots, but from a fast view might be connected with ΣΠΑΡΤΟΙ, spear warriors (Sparta might mean Spear carriers)

the spear and the javelin,
Javelin = Akontio Ακοντιο
Spear = Λογχη altoygh the word above words Spartoi and Spathi might be the connection

A VERY INTERESTING WORD IS THE SWORD
Sword is an iron age word, sword is connected with Greek ΣΚΩΡΙΑΙ rust of iron mettlurgy, and Germanic Swartz black I believe,
rust is black, iron is black,