slavic, germanic and others for the fun

[FrankN]

Wow, very informative post! Thanks, Baron!

You are welcome, commoner, but there is no need for titles, just call me FrankN

Lithuanian has "lankas" which is probably ancient form of "loks" and "lenkti" = "to bow". This an-uo change seems common for Lithuanian - Latvian and further change uo-u is common for Latvian - Russian.

That's an interesting one! German has "Gelenk" = English joint, link - the movable variant, not the fixed one as with the axis. There is also "lenken"=to steer, to direct. "Links"=left (bent?) vs. "rechts"=(up?)right.
Grimm discusses the further background, "which turns into an irritating richness of intertwined relations". Via a number of reconstructed sound changes, he among others connects "to crang", German "krank" (=ill, originally probably "bending in pain"), "krumm"=bent, and even speculates about an ancient relation to "Schlinge"/ sling. Interestingly, and unusual for him, he doesn't discuss any relation to other IE languages. Because there aren't any?
A very ancient word, which has gone through various sound shifts and changes in meaning, common to Germanic, Baltic and Slavic languages, but without obvious parallels in other IE languages. Pre- Indo-European Baltic substratum?

@Yetos: The axe->acid, sharp, black cluster is fascinating. I don't think it can be related to iron axes, that would be a bit late in time. But Greece has been traditional obsidian axe territory - a black material that is exceptionally sharp compared to other stones. Which way the meaning transfer went - from the sharp stone to the axe, or from the obsidian axe to sharpness, is worth considering, since it also might tell us something about ancient innovation flows. Axes are certainly older than vehicles axis, and a spread from the Eastern Mediterranean, alongside early farming that included the need for wood-cutting, isn't implausible. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ive-Population?p=437111&viewfull=1#post437111

spathi Σπαθι seems related to English spade, German Spaten, and Latin spatha. Interestingly, the word is attested for Old Saxon and Old Frisian, but not for Old High German, which makes a Latin borrowing or a Celtic root unlikely. There is also German "Spat", English spar for stones/ crystals that can easily be split (which usually implies low metal content). Goths? Roman soldiers trying to make their way through North German swamps?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feldspar

Bow and arrow: If I understand correctly, there is a possible etymologic relation between ΑΟΡ/Aor = chord, the Latin arcus (bow), and the arrow (old Germanic ör). I guess we need to wait for MOESAN and his Celtic contribution to understand better who borrowed from whom.
The Scythians (how could I forget about them) are of course the missing link to complete the Sagittarius-shooter chain.

Sword: The sword as the "dark one", made from iron instead of copper, isn't implausible. ΣΚΩΡΙΑΙ (rust) and "schwarz" (black) probably need to be regarded together with Latin obscura (dark), and might ultimately go back to the observation of solar and lunar eclipses.

@ Dalmat: I had overlooked sikira for axe. We have German "Schere", English scissor here, also Latin secare, Ossetian kaerdin, Lithuanian kirpti=to cut. Compare also sharp, to share, shore, and Swedish skär (skerry, rocky island). Apparently an ancient IE root. Intriguingly, sharp in Basque is zorrotz, which isn't that remote from a possible IE root (s)k*r(pt). Even Arabic hat=sharp, har=hot, spicy may with a bit of goodwill fit here.

 

[arvistro]

A very ancient word, which has gone through various sound shifts and changes in meaning, common to Germanic, Baltic and Slavic languages, but without obvious parallels in other IE languages. Pre- Indo-European Baltic substratum?

Could be. There is linked (he he) Latvian word "lenkt" ("aplenkt", "ielenkt") which is to surround (as in hunting), or another meaning to move in circles around the object. Nowadays with romantic meaning - a lady can 'lenkt' a man for a time period or till happy ending and vice versa. So this word could be important for ancient hunters both through bow and hunting technique.

I had overlooked sikira for axe. We have German "Schere", English scissor here, also Latin secare, Ossetian kaerdin, Lithuanian kirpti=to cut. Compare also sharp, to share, shore, and Swedish skär (skerry, rocky island). Apparently an ancient IE root. Intriguingly, sharp in Basque is zorrotz, which isn't that remote from a possible IE root (s)k*r(pt). Even Arabic hat=sharp, har=hot, spicy may with a bit of goodwill fit here.

I can't come up with Slavic equivalent. Baltic version of this root seems only in "kirpti"/"cirpt" - to shear sheep. Let's wait for some Slavic natives to comment.
edit: sorry, found Latvian "Šķirt" - "to separate", "atšķirība" - "difference", etc with common similar Lithuanian words. But not Slavic yet.

 

[LeBrok]

I can't come up with Slavic equivalent. Baltic version of this root seems only in "kirpti"/"cirpt" - to shear sheep. Let's wait for some Slavic natives to comment.
edit: sorry, found Latvian "Šķirt" - "to separate", "atšķirība" - "difference", etc with common similar Lithuanian words. But not Slavic yet.

That's what Dalmat brought to the table from Croatian "sikira", in Polish it is "siekiera" an axe, verb "siec" is to cut to small pieces.

 

[Dalmat]

To be honest I can't imagine my Baltic ancestors driving on chariots. Ok, ancient ancestors might be, but R1A in Baltic foresty lands no. Also I dont believe in Slavic R1a getting their expansion via conquest. Slavic people were not much organized according to most sources, East Slavs in Russia asked for vikings to rule them. Byzantian historians said smth similar about South Slavs (as "democratic" with no common ruler/authority).

you just pulled that out of your ass?

sikira, sjekira, sekira, comes from sići, sjeći, seći, to cut, it basically means cutter, axe=cutter

strijela comes from strijelac, which means shooter(or someone who hits the mark, in English probably most similar in meaning would be marksman), similar as sagittarius=strijelac, sagita=strijela

Luk, is same as English arc, therefore you have archer, but in Croatian, word for archer is strijelac(marksman)

 

[arvistro]

Sorry if it hurt your feelings. Open wiki South Slavs relationship with Byzantium. Ctrl+f De Bellis, Procopius. Or ctrl+f Strategikon (two quotes).

 

[Maleth]

That's what Dalmat brought to the table from Croatian "sikira", in Polish it is "siekiera" an axe, verb "siec" is to cut to small pieces.

Interesting...and Sikiena is knife in my language which is derived from Semitic Sikin.

 

[Dalmat]

Sorry if it hurt your feelings. Open wiki South Slavs relationship with Byzantium. Ctrl+f De Bellis, Procopius. Or ctrl+f Strategikon (two quotes).

not a ruler in early beginnings(rulers start to pop in 7th century and on) just after fall of rome, but we didnt invite vikings to rule us.
Perhaps i misunderstood you.

 

[Yetos]

@ Dalmat

sikira as axe meaning to cut, hmm
the word passed to modern greeks as τσεκουρι tsekoyri
the virb in my language Greek is σχεω noun σχασις modern σχιζω, it has a meaning of split, tear, rip,
as sjekira reminds me thε rust, the black colour,
strangely, I find a connection with secure meaning, i don't know why, maybe I am wrong, but reminds me the pikeman quards, the officers, next to king,

 

[Dalmat]

@ Dalmat

sikira as axe meaning to cut, hmm
the word passed to modern greeks as τσεκουρι tsekoyri
the virb in my language Greek is σχεω noun σχασις modern σχιζω, it has a meaning of split, tear, rip,
as sjekira reminds me thε rust, the black colour,
strangely, I find a connection with secure meaning, i don't know why, maybe I am wrong, but reminds me the pikeman quards, the officers, next to king,

nope, sjeći/sići/seći means to cut(btw I am listing differentiation among 'yot' which is all find in cratian dialects, ikavian, ijekavian, and ekavian, so dont be confused by that), our standard offitial or 'queens english' is ijekavian, but i am ikavian.

sikira basically means cutter
"pass me that cutter"
ć<=>k is from palatalization


secure as security does not exist with us, we call that zaštita, coming form štit(shield), and prefix za-, which basically means to, so it would be like this; to shield= zaštita
As in official protective force.
Sigurnost correlates witth security, but more in a way " i am secure here"='ja sam siguran ovdje'

Security exist in croatian as a loanword from English, and its used more as interantional word

 

[FrankN]

Interesting...and Sikiena is knife in my language which is derived from Semitic Sikin.

And the root has of course also survived in the Germanic sickle and the Latin secula. Since we seem to have a shared semitic-IE root here, it might be older than the term "axe". So, EEF initially only needed and used sickles. Tree-cutting came later and required a different tool, the name of which in NW Europe appears to have been derived from obsidian axes that were common in the Eastern Mediterranean.

Proto-Baltics & Proto-Slavs apparently didn't have a need for such differentiation, which indicates that they either did only little farming, or lived in sparsely forested areas, i.e. steppes.

Edit: Note that this argument, if correct, puts the IE=chariot equation in question. If steppe-dwelling IEs didn't know the term "axe", how could they have promoted the "axis" ?

 

[Dalmat]

And the root has of course also survived in the Germanic sickle and the Latin secula. Since we seem to have a shared semitic-IE root here, it might be older than the term "axe". So, EEF initially only needed and used sickles. Tree-cutting came later and required a different tool, the name of which in NW Europe appears to have been derived from obsidian axes that were common in the Eastern Mediterranean.

Proto-Baltics & Proto-Slavs apparently didn't have a need for such differentiation, which indicates that they either did only little farming, or lived in sparsely forested areas, i.e. steppes.

sickle is srp in croatian

 

[Dalmat]

Edit: Note that this argument, if correct, puts the IE=chariot equation in question. If steppe-dwelling IEs didn't know the term "axe", how could they have promoted the "axis" ?

why are you so sure ax is from proto IE?

when i look at ax, i find it similar to ox

 

[FrankN]

why are you so sure ax is from proto IE?

when i look at ax, i find it similar to ox

In fact you might be right. "Ax" could in general relate to a protrusion, such as an axe shaft, a bullhorn, the axle as the part of the shoulder that protrudes from the chest, etc. The bullhorn aspect would also explain the Greek parallels to pointedness, sharpness etc. There is an apparent relation to Latin agere, English to act, how and why is yet unclear to me. The prefix "ad-"/"at-", meaning "directing towards", should play a role here, maybe the subsequent root has got partly lost. Good point!

sickle is srp in croatian

Looks like another derivative from the IE root (s)k*r(pt). German has "kerben"="to carve, to notch" aside from "scheren"=to shear, so the evolution of the root into two variants, one with final "p/b/v", the other one without it, hasn't just occurred in Slavic. [One could add "scarf", "scalpel", "to shave" as a third variant that describes the application of cutting tools to humans]. Interestingly, the final "p/b/v" is found in the Slavic harvesting instrument, but in Gernanic wood-processing terminology, so the evolution seems to have occurred relatively early and independently in both language families.

Yetos: strangely, I find a connection with secure meaning, i don't know why, maybe I am wrong, but reminds me the pikeman quards, the officers, next to king,

If there is a relation, it is an indirect one. The Curia, the Roman Senate, probably at a certain point in time had jurisdiction on major crimes. Verdicts could include cutting off hands or heads, which would explain why Curia (and court) have the "(s)k*r(pt)" (cutting) stem.

Roman law developed the concept of "securus", legal titles that were outside of court jurisdiction, i.e. directly enforceable - "securities" in modern financial terminology. "Securus" also included exemptions from (local) taxes. The Frankish kings took over the concept and the term. Here, it applied especially to knights, who were outside of local jurisdiction, directly subject to the king, obliged to armed service but exempt from taxes. In short - the knights were "securus", the "security". Later, the meaning reversed. Instead of the knights being "secure" from local nobility/ courts, they themselves became associated with providing "security".

The original term is German "Schutz", English "shelter", which seems to be related to "shooter"., Plus, there is the guard (German "Wärter"/"Wächter"), related to Latin hortus (garden), French "régarder" (to observe, to watch), and various other terms including ward, herd, hoard, worth, and German "Wirt" (host, caretaker).

 

[MOESAN]

I See

BTW
twmpath « mound », « hillock » is IE and has the meaning of Tomb Greek Τυμβος modern Toumpa, the hill above the grave, an artificial hill where soil was put there to cover the monument,
twyn / tywyn « sand dune »,« hillock » Bret- tewenn, erin, tunienn « sand dune » so it turns to T the other dental *Dunnes *Θινες
cladach « shore », « beach », « stony shore » that word surprise me, comparing that Greeks call the rocky shores, the cliff as Ακται Αχται, the dangerous ones full of rocks and little sand

do you belive that word sierra has IE roots?

''("to turn": turning, curve shore ???but the double -RR- in 'torraod' is curious because we have not °'raod' but 'aod' in it (= "shore", "coast" previously "cliff", "height") -""

Translating the English turn = στροφη to turn = στριβω, but curve is κυρτος , something like a convex also κυρτος -καμπυλος
convex = καμπυλη , convex turns in = Κοιλος convex turns out = κυρτος
hmm a t-k? can't say for sure

OK for tumpo, twmpath, see lat- tumulus, fr- tombe etc...

 

[MOESAN]

you just pulled that out of your ass?

sikira, sjekira, sekira, comes from sići, sjeći, seći, to cut, it basically means cutter, axe=cutter

strijela comes from strijelac, which means shooter(or someone who hits the mark, in English probably most similar in meaning would be marksman), similar as sagittarius=strijelac, sagita=strijela

Luk, is same as English arc, therefore you have archer, but in Croatian, word for archer is strijelac(marksman)

are you saying strijela and strijelac have common root with sagitta, sagittarius ??? or only a common meaning???
lat- sagitta >> britt- saeth, saezh = bir "arrow" + saethu, saezhañ "to shoot">> "to strike"...

 

[MOESAN]

latin gladius would be a loanword from gaulish *cladios breton klezeñv, kleze welsh cleddyf gaelic claîomh

 

[Dalmat]

are you saying strijela and strijelac have common root with sagitta, sagittarius ??? or only a common meaning???
lat- sagitta >> britt- saeth, saezh = bir "arrow" + saethu, saezhañ "to shoot">> "to strike"...

not sure about root, but i obviously meant same meaning

 

[MOESAN]

not sure about root, but i obviously meant same meaning

at first sight I doibt they have the same cognate "skeleton"...

here some contribution

weapon Br- arm (loan << french) / W- arf / Crn- arf (arv)
sword Br- kleze (dialect- kleañ << klezeñv) / W- cleddyf / Crn- cledha (cledhevyow)
cutlass, dagger Br- gougleze / W- cleddyf byr (« short sword »), dagr / Crn- dagyer
bow Br- gwareg (« bowed ») / W- bwa / Crn- gwarag
arrow Br- bir (« spit »), saezh / W- saeth / Crn- s[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ē[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]th[/FONT]
spear Br- goaf / W- gwayw, picell /Crn- gu, sp[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ē[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ra [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](loan << english)[/FONT]
mallet, mall Br- (h)orzh ? << *gord ? / W- gordd / Crn- morben
club, bludgeon Br- penn-bazh / W pastwn ( ? loan << old french baston >> bâton « stick » / Crn- bat, c[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ū[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]lbren, blodjon[/FONT]
halberd Br- halabard (loan << french) / W- gwayw-fwyell (« axe-spear ») / Crn- ???
shield Br- skoed / W- ysgwyd, tarian / Crn- sc[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ō[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]s[/FONT]
helmet Br- tokarn (tok-houarn : « iron-hat »), kask (loan << french) / W- helm
(loan << english, firstable a germanic word, old french 'heaume') / + cap-diogelu (« protect-cap » : neologism) / Crn- basnet (loan << ? old french *bassinet?)


&: for gaelic(s) don't pay attention at the accents direction as in é or è : I took the easier !!!
weapon IrGael- arm / ScGael- arm
sword IrGael- cla[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ì[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]omh [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ScGael- [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]claideamh, cruaidh, slaighre[/FONT]
cutlass, dagger IrGael- miod[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ó[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]g [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ScGael- [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]biodag, cuinnsear, duibheagan [/FONT]
bow IrGael- bogha ScGael- bogha-saighde (maybe a loan << germanic, not sure)
arrow IrGael- saighead ScGael- saighead
spear IrGael- sleà ScGael- sleagh
mallet, mall IrGael- màilléad ScGael- ord-fiodha
club, bludgeon IrGael- maide ScGael- lorg
halberd IrGael- halbard ScGael- ailebeart, p[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ì[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]c-catha[/FONT]
shield IrGael- sciath ScGael- sgiath
helmet IrGael- cafarr, clogad ScGael- clogaid + ???


it is dangerous to conclude to quickly upon modern presence/meanings of words and to publish « chronolinguistic » results based upon presence or absence of some cognates among « brother » languages ; more risked when we speak about the P.I.E. and the apparition (or not) of some weapons or tools : very often the works leave aside : a) the dialects which can have kept some ancient words and were eliminated very very lately (20° century only) and b) the meaning drifts :
I take some examples :
a) Fr- sein, mamelle : chaste and not too precise english « breast », « bosom », see « teat », « tit » (Fr- téton, dialect- tète : I don't speek here about the divese forms and variations, but about the latin origin of these words in french – but some dialects had bron, see the celtic words !!!
the same for Fr son (2) : « bran » (!!!) - some dialects had bran, see the celtic words !!! (in english too)
the same for Fr aune, aulne : « alder » (from germanic *alna) – some dialects had verne (vergne) – see the celtic words !!!
b) Gr- spathê - Lat- spatula >> Fr- épaule : « shoulder » + spatule « spatula », see « spathe » : kind of « blade » – Sp- espalda << *espadla (Catal- espatla) : « body back » -
english spade, with congates among other germanic languages,from same root - french épée << *espada : « sword » -
so the first basic meaning of « flat blade » of every size leads to « spatula »,« sword », « shoulder », « back », « spade »...
&: surely the official dominant language marks the next result and future but the hardly extinct dialects and slangs avoid to anticipate too strongly concerning the dates of « rupture » between brother/cousin languages -
I-Eans, if I rely on my readings, changed of preference concerning weapons (by instance, B. Sergent saids they liked at first the « mass » or «metal mallet » kind of weapons before leave them) – bows and arrows were not always preferred at the same time by different branches of the I-E descendants – and tribes worthing weapons and war had surely a lot of words to name different kinds and sizes of close weapons, as they have for briding – so, after some centuries of separation, and meanings drift as it occurs always, some terms took the place of others, some were abandoned : nothing new here – so we have to be very carefull when we try to interprete the presence or absence of cognate words in today languages – I know my remark doesn't bring anything positive but it's a first point to begin -
&: when you find 2 cognate words in distnct languages, today, with the exact same meaning, you can very often suppose a recent enough loan ! Except for some concepts like the ones concerning family, body, basic natural elements, and yet...

 

[arvistro]

Can you help me out with this word in Latvian:
Dēls - son. My main problem. IE languages around have sunus, sin, sohn. Finnic has poeg, poika. Could it be related to -dahl as in Heyerdahl? Seems not. Wiki says dahl is valley.

 

[Yetos]

Okay

the next word, is tongue

Greek koine γλωσσα glossa gloossa
tsakonika Greek greek γρουσσα groussa grussa
Ionian Greek Γλωττα glotta glootta
the termination also means language