Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?
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hrvat22
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I do not see what the problem is, if the Serbs live few meters away from Albanians logically they will have Albanian genetics as well. They think it will disappear from genes, Croats also have Albanian genetics, a smaller part of Albanians have Croatian genetic.
This is hilarious. So you are seeking a prove that Serbs came to Dalmatia from Greece?
When actually in DIA is written that they came to Dalmatia via Greece and Danube. You must not be serious? This is another one in a series of intentional misconceptions that you serve as facts on this forum.mihaitzateo
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If you look at the bodies and figures of Finnish people and of Irish or Orcadian or Icelander people, you will see very easy that there is clear difference between NW and NE people.
NW people got strong beards (maybe 1 in 1000 got fewer beard), NE people got few beard.
Face - NE people are mostly with wide faces or East Nordids.
NW people are some weird paleoAtlantid race or, something between paleoAtlantid and some Keltic Nordid, or even towards Hallstat Nordids.
If you look at the noses - most NW people got narrow noses, most NE people got wider noses.
Etc.
Yes, there are also dark haired Finns and yes, there are also very light haired Irish or Orcadian people.
But light hair is the rule to Finns and brown hair is the rule to Irish and Orcadian and Icelander people.
Etc.
NW people got strong beards (maybe 1 in 1000 got fewer beard), NE people got few beard.
Face - NE people are mostly with wide faces or East Nordids.
NW people are some weird paleoAtlantid race or, something between paleoAtlantid and some Keltic Nordid, or even towards Hallstat Nordids.
If you look at the noses - most NW people got narrow noses, most NE people got wider noses.
Etc.
Yes, there are also dark haired Finns and yes, there are also very light haired Irish or Orcadian people.
But light hair is the rule to Finns and brown hair is the rule to Irish and Orcadian and Icelander people.
Etc.
hrvat22
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This is hilarious. So you are seeking a prove that Serbs came to Dalmatia from Greece?
De Administrando Imperio
Tibor Živković, Serbian historian.
[h=1]Thessaloniki[/h]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaloniki#Byzantine_era_and_Middle_Ages
don_joe
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I do, many do. Not as many as before the '90. due to the war. A lot of people fled from East and South to Zagreb and it changed the language and culture a bit. But anywhere around Zagreb the Kajkawian dialect is intact. Thanks for asking.
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Wonomyro
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What do you say? That people in ISO are not experts?
No. Today, most people in Serbia speak the language that started to be used in Serbian schools in the middle of 19th century. Some fifty years ago, even citizens of Belgrade had problems with grammatical cases (Torlakian, just like Bulgarian and Macedonian, lacks some grammatical cases). Unlike standard Croatian, the standard Serbian language use ekavian "accent" and some other Balkasprachbund features which are evidences of Torlakian substrate.
I prefer the fact that Croatian standard language is recognized as such by International Organization for Standardization.
I don’t see your point. It was clearly said that, unlike the rest of dialects that he classified as FORMER Serbo-Croatian, Torlakian belongs to the “Balkanic Linguistic Area” together with Bulgarian and Macedonian.
You called it “Croatian school of linguistics”. Thank you for not calling it “Serbo-Croatian school of linguistics”. There was more then one school of linguistic in Croatia of which one was pretty much Yugoslavian politically oriented. O tempora, o mores!
Wonomyro
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For others to understand a background of the issue we were discussing about, here is a short history:
The so called Serbo-Croatian language was formally introduced in Croatia in 1954 on the initiative of Yugoslavian Communist Party. The communists gathered some Croatian and Serbian intellectuals to sign up an agreement which was later called “Novi Sad Agreement”.
It ended up as a failure, as everything that communists put their hands on.
Already in 1967, the most prominent Croatian intellectuals protested against the agreement as they realized that, in practice, the complete Croatian literature was degraded as “archaic”, only Serbian “version” of the “common language" was promoted as correct, and Croatian teachers were recommended to teach Croatian children from Serbian literature instead of Croatian.
In 1971, after the fall of so called “Croatian spring” movement, many Croatian intellectuals ended up in communistic prisons under the charge o being “nationalists”. Many of them were in prison because of “language issues”.
However, communists learned the lesson so, along with the constitutional changes in 1974, Croatian literary language became an official language in Croatia again (unfortunately not yet in Bosnia).
Yugoslavian communists were still promoting an idea of one Serbo-Croatian language, however (what a hypocrisy!) with two “variants”, so called western and eastern variant. The “western” variant was obviously a euphemism for Croatian standard language.
The so called Serbo-Croatian language was formally introduced in Croatia in 1954 on the initiative of Yugoslavian Communist Party. The communists gathered some Croatian and Serbian intellectuals to sign up an agreement which was later called “Novi Sad Agreement”.
It ended up as a failure, as everything that communists put their hands on.
Already in 1967, the most prominent Croatian intellectuals protested against the agreement as they realized that, in practice, the complete Croatian literature was degraded as “archaic”, only Serbian “version” of the “common language" was promoted as correct, and Croatian teachers were recommended to teach Croatian children from Serbian literature instead of Croatian.
In 1971, after the fall of so called “Croatian spring” movement, many Croatian intellectuals ended up in communistic prisons under the charge o being “nationalists”. Many of them were in prison because of “language issues”.
However, communists learned the lesson so, along with the constitutional changes in 1974, Croatian literary language became an official language in Croatia again (unfortunately not yet in Bosnia).
Yugoslavian communists were still promoting an idea of one Serbo-Croatian language, however (what a hypocrisy!) with two “variants”, so called western and eastern variant. The “western” variant was obviously a euphemism for Croatian standard language.
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As i said you are amazing guy. Only twisted mind can claim that Serbs came from Greece, and ask for DNA evidences to support this claim
So as per you Greece is the country of Serbian origin, right? Even though they settled there for few months or years? Yeah that is for sure enough time for Serbs to make huge genetic impact on that area and for you to get an idea to seek for genetic connection. What is amazing is your persistence to prove all these things coming from your imagination with partial quotation of some documents taken completely out of context. Common, please get serious and stop posting craps that only people having no clue about Balkan history can swallow up.
LABERIA
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As i said you are amazing guy. Only twisted mind can claim that Serbs came from Greece, and ask for DNA evidences to support this claim
Why don't you start a thread about the Ethnogenesis of the Serbs, their origine, language, etc. There is not too much information about this important period of your history. I have fail to find a similar thread around in forums including Eupedia. Even the Wiki page about this period of history of your nation is very poor.
If you don't know what the difference between a sprachbund or linguistic area and genetic descent is there's no point in continuing the discussion. Linguistically Stokavian is closest to Torlakian in that both dialects share a recent common ancestor, there's no way around it. Have fun with your ISO Codes.
Austrian researchers famously received numerous threats for their research of the history of Albania. Not sure how someone coming from a country like that could have such a sense of cultural superiority. Have some humility.
hrvat22
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I am twisted because I respect historical record who speaks about arrival of Serbs to the Balkans? It's a nice compliment, thanks!
I can not say which country or area is of original Serbian origin because with Sorbs you do not have genetic connections and they are close to Francs at that time (7th century)
DAI
If there exist a Serbian toponyms and Slavic settlements, then part of these Serbs stayed there that would be logic, and it would be seen in today's genetics of Serbians.
However Serbs are coming as neighbors of White Croats to Balkans, but genetic of Serbs and Croats have the same source of I2a. Their I2a subclades does not show that they come from two areas. Rare historical data locate White Croatia and Croats right in the source of I2a subclades.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats
What was taken completely out of context?
These are historical facts, they talk about migration of Serbians to the Balkans and we have to respect that.
Wonomyro
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As far as I can see, only some Serbian linguists stand on the positions that Torlakian is genetically "Štokavian":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torlakian_dialect
And here is a candy:
LABERIA
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First, i don't understand what is the problem with my post. Can you explain me what is wrong?
Second, show some respect for the members of this forum and for the readers in general and don't spread disinformation.
hrvat22
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It is easier to use written historical data for Croat's arrival to Balkans than to say what historical data exists and talks about Serbs arrival.
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This is correct, Laberia, you are right in this. Deretic is the greatest source Serbians use for themselves and their neighbors surrounding them. Deretic is one of the main sources of Serbian wikipedia, that is run and edited by Serbian propagandist Boris Malagurski.
Albanian genetics have been debunking Serbian "historians" altogether. What matters is that we are the natives of the Balkans, regardless of what chauvinistic Serbians tell you.
IIRC Croatian linguists first proposed a Stokavian-Torlakian group. Note however that I never claimed that this group existed, only that the two share a more recent common descent to the exclusion of other BSC dialects.
Wonomyro
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Hopefully we are not in Yugoslavia any more so everyone, including linguists, could get out of that mental cage. Some people will never be able to do it for different reasons.
One can see national myths for the falsehoods they are and still not support communism :grin:
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