New distribution map of haplogroup E-M123

E-M34 said:
Looks like the Pelasgians may have been more than legend.
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Who said Pelasgians were a legend? Most prominent Hellen authors of antiquity wrote about them. Homer mentioned them in "Iliad". They have a 2000 yrs written history. They lived side by side, in separate villages all over Greece for 2000 yrs, speaking a barbaric language and fighting alongside Hellenes, until they were absorbed at 1500 BC. They also inhabited the area that includes Albania, Bosnia, Croatia South and central Italy. So, The Pellasgian layer is a common denominator of all south Europe.
 
We have also a written records about existence of dragons in Medieval Europe, however archaeological proofs never materialized.
 
LeBrok said:
We have also a written records about existence of dragons in Medieval Europe, however archaeological proofs never materialized.
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There is linguistic evidence of their presence. The name Larissa (a town in Greece) or Lisssus( Town in Albania). Athens is another one or Zeus is thought to have Pellasgian ORIGIN. As far as artifacts are not numerous but it could be that their artifacts were incorporated as Greek artifacts. But their presence is well documented so there is no reason to question it.
 
albanopolis said:
There is linguistic evidence of their presence. The name Larissa (a town in Greece) or Lisssus( Town in Albania). Athens is another one or Zeus is thought to have Pellasgian ORIGIN. As far as artifacts are not numerous but it could be that their artifacts were incorporated as Greek artifacts. But their presence is well documented so there is no reason to question it.
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I thought Pelasgian was a general term to name ancient inhabitants of Greece and surrounding islands? It is not a name of nationality or ethnicity. Pre Dorian, pre Hellenic inhabitants. Sort of barbarians in contrast with civilized Greeks of antiquity.
 
sorry
nothing
 
LeBrok said:
I thought Pelasgian was a general term to name ancient inhabitants of Greece and surrounding islands? It is not a name of nationality or ethnicity. Pre Dorian, pre Hellenic inhabitants. Sort of barbarians in contrast with civilized Greeks of antiquity.
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The Albanian historians maintain the theory that Pellasgians were all over Southern Europe. There is linguistic evidence about it. I heard archaeologists complain that finding evidence of it has proven difficult in terms of artifacts at least in Albania. Or probably they are not looking in the right place. But given that different Hellen historians of the time, in a span of at least 1500 consecutive yrs there is no reason of doubting it.
 
albanopolis said:
The Albanian historians maintain the theory that Pellasgians were all over Southern Europe. There is linguistic evidence about it. I heard archaeologists complain that finding evidence of it has proven difficult in terms of artifacts at least in Albania. Or probably they are not looking in the right place. But given that different Hellen historians of the time, in a span of at least 1500 consecutive yrs there is no reason of doubting it.
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link of an Albanian Historian?
 
albanopolis said:
The Albanian historians maintain the theory that Pellasgians were all over Southern Europe. There is linguistic evidence about it. I heard archaeologists complain that finding evidence of it has proven difficult in terms of artifacts at least in Albania. Or probably they are not looking in the right place. But given that different Hellen historians of the time, in a span of at least 1500 consecutive yrs there is no reason of doubting it.
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I don't doubt there were ancient people who Greeks referred to as Pelasgians. However it is a very difficult (impossible) to determine which culture exactly Greeks historians meant. Without any written records it was hard for these historians to be exact in their statements after hundred or thousands of years. I'm sure you will find contradictory records among historians about Pelasgians, right?
You know how inaccurate human memory is?
 
I want to ask - if the Phoenicians brought M34 to Europe who brought M123* (m34 negative)?
 
With the recent refinement and standardization of Y-E's subgroups down from E-M123>E-M34>E-L29>E-L29* & E-M136, have there been any new distribution maps produced using these separate groups?
 
Maciamo, how many samples is the map based on? Is there a plan to update it soon, as 4 years have passed since it was released?
 
Goga said:
Haplogroup E-M123 in Kurdistan can be from Akkadians, Assyrians, Chaldeans or Jews.
It's even possible that the 10 lost tribes of Israel settled down in Kurdistan!
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My family on my father's side is Kurdish, all from Kurdistan of Iraq and Iran, and I just learned my dad is the [FONT=Avenir Next, Helvetica, Roboto, Arial, sans-serif]E-M123 haplogroup. I don't know much about this, and this is one of the first pages I've looked at, so I love seeing the connections. :)[/FONT]
 
Time for an update?

Very nice, but I think it is very misleading considering the depopulation of everyone the Nazis thought "looked Jewish" in the 2nd Reich area.

I think E-M123 is pretty clearly Phoenician and probably spread with the Romans too. I have a suggestion for the presence of E-M123 across Ukraine could be from Akatzir Cursarioi or from Lithuanian Palemonids from Belarussia. I recommend looking at yfull.com for more up to date E-M123 results. Some branches e.g. yfull.com/tree/E-Y6938/ are clearly native to the Lithuanian Grand-Duch area. Also should remember to include Gagauzia and presence in indigenous Crimean populations, Taman and the Caucasus?

Time for an update perhaps?
 
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from passa e1b1b1 great map :)
the e-m84 eastern scytian dude from the same research in south ural

https://i.imgur.com/SlhhnZh.png

Scythian MJ40 (ScySar_SU) - E-PF6746
(this branch is under e-m84 )
 
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I thought about it too. J1 and E-M123 are both typical of Southwest Asia, so it makes sense. In Europe their distribution match especially well in Greece, Italy, France, Germany and Hungary.
 
Khazar said:
Very nice, but I think it is very misleading considering the depopulation of everyone the Nazis thought "looked Jewish" in the 2nd Reich area.

I think E-M123 is pretty clearly Phoenician and probably spread with the Romans too. I have a suggestion for the presence of E-M123 across Ukraine could be from Akatzir Cursarioi or from Lithuanian Palemonids from Belarussia. I recommend looking at yfull.com for more up to date E-M123 results. Some branches e.g. yfull.com/tree/E-Y6938/ are clearly native to the Lithuanian Grand-Duch area. Also should remember to include Gagauzia and presence in indigenous Crimean populations, Taman and the Caucasus?

Time for an update perhaps?
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Phoenician and native Balto-Slavic ... but not Jewish?

Y6938 is Ashkenazi, with ultimate Levantine origins. It split ca. 400 CE from Y102667, which includes a Libyan Jew, a Turkish/Tunisian Jew, 3 New World Hispanics, and most likely an Algerian Jew. The distribution you're looking at is simply the pattern of Ashkenazi settlement in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
 
from the other Scythian paper

e-m84 branch in 400 bc south ural this could be a migration from bmac direction up north to the steppe
and absorbed by r1a and Q tribes in the steppe
i am talking about e-m84 not e-m123* that might came from the north and we see him in DA19 saka and in north pakistan swat valley remains

source:

https://www.cell.com/current-biology/ful...fw9pxzXa6A

full list of y haplogroups and mtdna from scytian and other remains from the paper

mtDNA Y-DNA
MJ-06 Ukr_BA 0.184 XX H2a1
MJ-09 Ukr_BA 0.228 XX H13a2c
MJ-08 ר 0.138 XX T2a1b1a
MJ-12 Cimmerians 0.299 XX H35
MJ-31 Cimmerians 0.217 XY U5a1b1 R1a-Z645
MJ-32 Cimmerians 0.296 XY U2e2 R1a2c-B111
MJ-13 Scy_Ukr 0.265 XX H11b1
MJ-14 Scy_Uk ZU_Yr
Za 0.166 XY U2e2 R1a-M417
MJ-16 Scy_Ukr 0.282 XY T2b J2a8-B437
MJ-33 Scy_Ukr 0.078 XY U5a2a2 R1a-M417
MJ-34 Scy_Ukr 0.5 XY W3a1 R1a2-Z93
MJ-35 Scy_Ukr 0.149 XY X4 Q1c-L332
MJ-46 Scy_Ukr 0.173 XX J1d6
MJ-47 Scy_Ukr 0.073 XX T2
MJ-19 Chern 0.21 XX H1n6
MJ-36 Chern 0.02 XX H1c
MJ-37 Chern 0.14 XX T2g1
MJ-38 Sar_Cau 0.092 XY W Q1c-L332
LS-13 ScySar_SU 0.46 XY W3a R1a1e-CTS1123
MJ-39 ScyS4_AaU-1 Z645
MJ-40 ScySar_SU 0.036 XY U5a2 + 16,294 E2b1-PF6746
MJ-41 ScySar_SU 0.529 XX U5b2a1a2
MJ-42 ScySar_SU 0.525 XY T1a1d R1a-Z645
MJ-43 ScySar_SU 0.456 XX C1E
MJ-44 ScySar_SU 0.717 XX U5b2a1a1
MJ-56 ScySar_SU 0.301 XX U5b2c
MJ-51 Scy_Kaz 0.085 XY U5a1f1 R1a-M198
MJ-52 Scy_Kaz 0.092 XY A23 J1b-P58 (3/10)
MJ-53 Scy_Kaz 0.022 XY? U5b2b ​​R1-?
MJ-54 Scy_Kaz 0.027 XX F2
 
from this paper:
https://static-content.springer.com...0/MediaObjects/41559_2020_1102_MOESM1_ESM.pdf
this individual from early medieval sardinia
i wish we knew farther if he is m123 , m34 or even downstream clades like e-m84 or e-L791
what we know for sure is that he was e-z830 positive
https://yfull.com/arch-3.10/tree/E1b1b1b2/
GC4 (Sardinia_EarlyMedieval, I12221). Bone, C14 dated to 892-990 calCE (1100±20 BP, PSUAMS-6157).
https://i.imgur.com/QsoUWdl.png

(From passa map

https://i.imgur.com/asAeg1Q.png

appricate his work but this individual was e-z830 not only z827 as he was positive for CTS11781 one of e-z830 equivalent anyway better than nothing kudos for his work :good_job:
some information on him from autosomal point:
Early Medieval Sardinian (I12221):The most recent individual in our dataset (892-990 calCE) was consistent with forming a cladewith the two Late Antiquity Sardinians, and 6 other individuals from the other ancient Sardiniangroups (Supplementary Table 13). However, these results must be viewed with caution because ofthe low coverage of some of the individuals involved leading to small numbers of SNPs covered inboth individuals being compared (the test individual, I12221, has 78437 SNP covered at least once)(Supplementary Data 1). Similar limitations due to small SNP counts are reflected in Fig. 3 of themain manuscript for the low-coverage Sicily_Chalcolithic4936 (23600 SNPs) and Sicily_Chalcolithic(40252 SNPs) individuals, whose evidence of forming a clade with the majority of the otheranalyzed individuals plausibly just reflects limited data and thus limited statistical resolution
source: page 28
 
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