Hi mate
I am also paternally Deep Maniot (J2a though) and intrigued by your results. Do you know more about your paternal line. For example the paternal village’s name in Eastern Mani?
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Updated phylogenetic tree of E-V13
I am also paternally Deep Maniot (J2a though) and intrigued by your results. Do you know more about your paternal line. For example the paternal village’s name in Eastern Mani?
Yea! My great grandpa was from Chimara and my great grandma was from Gonea both outside of Kotronas. My great grandma was Cretan though. They immigrated with my grandpa and since then my families been in the states. We didn’t get the chance to test my grandpas autosomal, i would have loved to see it. But based on dads and his siblings it would have been close to 100% greek if not 100% (only one of my grandpas kids got 1% balkans and the only other mediterannean was 2% Cypriot). What town are yall from ? Also do you want to know the surnames ?
Edit: 100 percent Greek as in mainland + islands
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THE SEA PEOPLES RAHHH. Just kidding obvs but having formed ~1200 years ago it makes it hard to see the migrations until the Greco-Roman days, again gonna dig into the books. I think there’s either a layered, slow migration or a multifaceted migration around the Black Sea or carpathian basin as that’s the only way i can think of it spreading out in multiple directions with varying clades like it did (obviously spread through seafaring too with the greco-romans). Migrating from there to south Thrace and then staying in a community for a while before making its way over to the peloponnese does make sense. I’ll update with anything relevant i find in the books !
Edit sorry for the new account i had two emails on here and signed in with the other one my bad hahah
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only using the 77 acct from now on btw sorry about that
Also, could a group like the catacomb culture be how e-v13 potentially got down to Thrace (assuming Thrace is right for the sake of argument) ? E-by3880 spread throughout Europe and the steppe via catacombs. An IE got to Thrace maybe via a multi cordoned ware connection and then stayed there. Then in the dark ages and reemergence of Greek civilization it spread enough to then end up in Croatia and the Peloponnese? Just spitballing and this is assuming a southeastern Europe/thracian connection.
Catacomb culture was largely steppe and Yamnaya derived, rather not.
I think that Cotofeni might have been the main spreader of E-V13 in the earliest period, or better it survived in Cotofeni, because at that time E-V13 was a very small male lineage still. It began to grow only later, in my opinion within Nyirseg and into Eastern Otomani, from there on Suciu de Sus and related groups which created the Gáva/Channelled Ware horizon.
I think that Cotofeni might have been the main spreader of E-V13 in the earliest period, or better it survived in Cotofeni, because at that time E-V13 was a very small male lineage still. It began to grow only later, in my opinion within Nyirseg and into Eastern Otomani, from there on Suciu de Sus and related groups which created the Gáva/Channelled Ware horizon.
PaleoRevenge
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In the Hungarian conference "Tranformation of Europe in the 3rd Millennium BC", they had a presentation for Cotofeni, in the Day 2 video(first presentation of Day 2). They were quite clear that Cotofeni people survived, as for DNA samples the speaker replied that we have to wait until the Transylvania paper is published. Now we wait and be tormented.
Ahhhh. I’m picking up “the horse the wheel and language”, the “lost world of old Europe: the Danube valley 5000-3500 bce”, “the dark ages of greece”, “the late copper age coțofeni culture of south east Europe”, and “the end of the Bronze Age”. Gonna try to tear thru them i need to get my knowledge levels elevated hahah
Interesting I have never heard of any of that although I have only been doing the Y DNA thing for 5 years. There was a recent discovery made is that my E-CTS2001 branches directly off of E-SK888 I'm confirmed negative for E-CTS6377. I was told that it appears to be of Carpathian Origins?Once Dr. Imre findings are implemented will I still belong to Haplogroup E-Z16988?
ELIOV13
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Ho aggiornato e ampliato l'albero filogenetico dell'aplogruppo E-V13. Ho modificato il layout per mostrare quando ogni clade si è sviluppato nel tempo, in modo da avere un'idea migliore di quando si sono verificate le espansioni regionali.
Molti rami dell'albero sono ancora mancanti. Ci sono pochi campioni greci, italiani, francesi e iberici testati per cladi profondi e quasi nessuno dell'Asia occidentale, fatta eccezione per gli stati del Golfo.
Cliccando sull'albero si accede alla pagina esterna al forum e cliccando ancora una volta si visualizza lo schermo intero.
L'aplogruppo y 16729 dovrebbe essere aggiornato. In Italia siamo ora in 4. Poi ci sono anche Grecia, Macedonia e CroaziaHo aggiornato e ampliato l'albero filogenetico dell'aplogruppo E-V13. Ho modificato il layout per mostrare quando ogni clade si è sviluppato nel tempo, in modo da avere un'idea migliore di quando si sono verificate le espansioni regionali.
Molti rami dell'albero sono ancora mancanti. Ci sono pochi campioni greci, italiani, francesi e iberici testati per cladi profondi e quasi nessuno dell'Asia occidentale, fatta eccezione per gli stati del Golfo.
Cliccando sull'albero si accede alla pagina esterna al forum e cliccando ancora una volta si visualizza a schermo intero.
ELIOV13
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Ho aggiornato e ampliato l'albero filogenetico dell'aplogruppo E-V13. Ho modificato il layout per mostrare quando ogni clade si è sviluppato nel tempo, in modo da avere un'idea migliore di quando si sono verificate le espansioni regionali.
Molti rami dell'albero sono ancora mancanti. Ci sono pochi campioni greci, italiani, francesi e iberici testati per cladi profondi e quasi nessuno dell'Asia occidentale, fatta eccezione per gli stati del Golfo.
Cliccando sull'albero si accede alla pagina esterna al forum e cliccando ancora una volta si visualizza lo schermo intero.
L'aplogruppo y 16729 dovrebbe essere aggiornato. In Italia siamo ora in 4. Poi ci sono anche Grecia, Macedonia e CroaziaHo aggiornato e ampliato l'albero filogenetico dell'aplogruppo E-V13. Ho modificato il layout per mostrare quando ogni clade si è sviluppato nel tempo, in modo da avere un'idea migliore di quando si sono verificate le espansioni regionali.
Molti rami dell'albero sono ancora mancanti. Ci sono pochi campioni greci, italiani, francesi e iberici testati per cladi profondi e quasi nessuno dell'Asia occidentale, fatta eccezione per gli stati del Golfo.
Cliccando sull'albero si accede alla pagina esterna al forum e cliccando ancora una volta si visualizza lo schermo intero.
Ho aggiornato e ampliato l'albero filogenetico dell'aplogruppo E-V13. Ho modificato il layout per mostrare quando ogni clade si è sviluppato nel tempo, in modo da avere un'idea migliore di quando si sono verificate le espansioni regionali.
Molti rami dell'albero sono ancora mancanti. Ci sono pochi campioni greci, italiani, francesi e iberici testati per cladi profondi e quasi nessuno dell'Asia occidentale, fatta eccezione per gli stati del Golfo.
Cliccando sull'albero si accede alla pagina esterna al forum e cliccando ancora una volta si visualizza lo schermo intero.
Ciao,e' possibile leggere i tuoi Str .Sono anch'io y16729 .Abito in Italia e la mia famiglia ha origine da Varsi dove erano presenti già nel 1300.In famiglia si e' sempre detto siamo di origine greca.Infatti il mio cognome antico era Perachis.Sto aspettando i risultati per big Y.
ELIOV13
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Ciao a tutti,finalmente sono arrivati anche i miei risultati di bigySono come dskos77 E-FT64983.C'e' però qualche discrepanza perché FTDNA lo fa' nascere in Germania così come Ey16729 in nord Italia.dskos77 dovrebbe specificare il suo paese di origine (che non compare)per aver una migliore spiegazione dei risultati.Inoltre FTDNA propone un percorso migratorio che non ha riscontro nei vari pareri del forum.Qualcuno più esperto potrebbe dare una migliore interpretazione?Grazie
The big problem with E-FT64983 is its fairly isolated position. I mean it has nothing between 1800 BC and 1000 BC to work with. It just has a fairly massive expansion phase in the Late Urnfield early Hallstatt period, with lots of descendants, but again, rather unusual for E-V13 branches, they don't have a lot of expansive success afterwards, but end up as being all isolated linegaes after 900 BC.
To me this looks like a late Urnfield dispersion, possibly with a group which mixed with other Carpatho-Balkan groups, like Italo-Celtic/Celtic or Northern Illyrian people along the Middle Danube.
At first glance, cultural formations like the Srem group come to mind. This was a group and area in which Bosut-Basarabi North Thracians/Dacians and early Celts and Northern Illyrians met and mixed:
This would explain why they have a regular, signficant growth in the LBA-EIA, like other big V13 branches, but fall behind quite drasticaly afterwards: Because they were cut off from the main E-V13 population and the remains re-distributed among Celts and Illyrians.
Source: https://www.researchgate.net/public...of_Early_Iron_Age_in_the_Serbian_Danube_basin
Of course, that's a lot of speculation, but that's, in my opinion, a plausible scenario among others of course. Because one has to explain why this branch was so extremely successful in the LBA-EIA, but not before or afterwards. Being cut off early from the main V13 population and moving along with Eastern Celts and Northern Illyrians, both of which had no good luck in the time periods that followed, would be a good explanation for that pattern.
To me this looks like a late Urnfield dispersion, possibly with a group which mixed with other Carpatho-Balkan groups, like Italo-Celtic/Celtic or Northern Illyrian people along the Middle Danube.
At first glance, cultural formations like the Srem group come to mind. This was a group and area in which Bosut-Basarabi North Thracians/Dacians and early Celts and Northern Illyrians met and mixed:
This would explain why they have a regular, signficant growth in the LBA-EIA, like other big V13 branches, but fall behind quite drasticaly afterwards: Because they were cut off from the main E-V13 population and the remains re-distributed among Celts and Illyrians.
Source: https://www.researchgate.net/public...of_Early_Iron_Age_in_the_Serbian_Danube_basin
Of course, that's a lot of speculation, but that's, in my opinion, a plausible scenario among others of course. Because one has to explain why this branch was so extremely successful in the LBA-EIA, but not before or afterwards. Being cut off early from the main V13 population and moving along with Eastern Celts and Northern Illyrians, both of which had no good luck in the time periods that followed, would be a good explanation for that pattern.
ELIOV13
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Cao,sei d'accordo con il percorso migratorio e la nascita geografica degli aplogruppi proposta da FTDNA?L618 dalla Sicilia?By3880 in nord Italia?Quindi poi da lì si espansero ad est sino alla Grecia?In che periodo furono maggioranza tra i Daco Traci?
E-L618 spread into Europe with near certainty with Impresso-Cardial Neolithic people:
That's the culture from which we have the first E-L618 finds. Note that one of the earliest, isolated branches, with an ancient DNA sample from coastal Croatia, has now a match with an Iraqi!
This is further evidence for a Levantine route, with an ancestor likely being a Natufian.
The FTDNA interpretation on Globetrekker comes from the fact that E-L618 kind of "jumped" into Europe. The reason for this "leap frogging" is simply that they moved, unlike other early farmers, by sea. First they moved along the coasts into various European coastal regions, then they moved deeper inland along the rivers.
That's how E-L618 spread in groups like Michelsberg, Lengyel, Tiszapolgar-Bodrogkeresztur, Tripolye-Cucuteni, Varna etc.
As for when E-V13 became dominant in Proto-Thracians we don't know, but what we can say for sure is that they totally dominated their (sub-?) population the latest by around 2.000 BC. By 2000 BC the main E-V13 population was fully or nearly fully exclusively E-V13. This implies they had replaced all other haplogroups in their population which might have lived among the Pre-Thracians before.
This is because E-V13 has a specific phylogeny and pattern of growth. This pattern being not mirrored by any other major haplogroup, which implies it is a pattern specific to the Daco-Thracians and specific to E-V13.
That's why E-V13 which don't have the same pattern as the main branches do, kind of stick out. Like most other branches of E-V13 other than E-FT64983, which had such a big success and expansion in the LBA-EIA, did continue to grow and expand later, like e.g. E-CTS9320, E-L241, branches of E-FGC11450.
Whenever a branch has a different pattern, we need an explanation, like in the case of E-FT64983 that it was cut off and not being part of the main Daco-Thracian population after 900 BC.
Because of these fairly strict and specific patterns for the E-V13 main branches, their sheer number and the statistical significance emerging from this number of descendants, we can say that probably already around 2.400 BC, but latest around 2.000 BC, the E-V13 population was totally dominated by this haplogroup.
However, its possible, just possible, which is why I'm careful, that a non-E-V13 Thracian speaking or Para-Thracian population still existed by that time. I don't think this was the case, but if it did exist, it was later nearly completely annihilated by the E-V13 populaton.
After 1.000 BC, after the biggest E-V13 expansion, it is absolutely for sure that Daco-Thracians were completely dominated by E-V13.
Another map for the spread of Impresso-Cardial and presumably E-L618 (as a minority lineage among them):
As you can see, the more likely path is from Pre-Pottery Neolithic in the Levante (post-Natufian) to South Eastern Europe, spreading from there first by sea, along the coastlines, then going into the continent along the rivers in the next step (Lengyel-Sopot etc.).
It is therefore likely they entered Europe via Crete/Greece, and moved to Italy from there, rather than the opposite way around.
As you can see, the more likely path is from Pre-Pottery Neolithic in the Levante (post-Natufian) to South Eastern Europe, spreading from there first by sea, along the coastlines, then going into the continent along the rivers in the next step (Lengyel-Sopot etc.).
It is therefore likely they entered Europe via Crete/Greece, and moved to Italy from there, rather than the opposite way around.
ELIOV13
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Cao,sei d'accordo con il percorso migratorio e la nascita geografica degli aplogruppi proposta da FTDNA?L618 dalla Sicilia?By3880 in nord Italia?Quindi poi da lì si espansero ad est sino alla Grecia?In che periodo furono maggioranza tra i Daco Traci?
Scusami,quindi che percorso fecero i V13 per arrivare in centro Europa dove e' posto CTS 5856 (dove ci sono le cladi più antiche) per poi espandersi con 3880 attraverso i campi d'urne,Hallstat,La Tene?Insomma tribù celtiche?Non avrebbero dovuto espandersi dalla Tracia ed avere lì i cladi più antichi?Anche i Dori (che dovrebbero essere arrivati in Grecia con popolazioni misto Hallstat-Illiriche) non tagliano fuori l'espansione Daco-Tracia o in quel periodo i V13 erano già trasferiti completamente in centro Europa? O subirono un forte effetto"collo di bottiglia" per poi essere presenti solo in centro Europa?GrazieUn'altra mappa per la diffusione di Impresso-Cardial e presumibilmente di E-L618 (come lignaggio minoritario tra loro):
Come si può vedere, il percorso più probabile va dal Neolitico preceramico nel Levante (post-natufiano) all'Europa sudorientale, diffondendosi da lì prima via mare, lungo le coste, per poi addentrarsi nel continente lungo i fiumi nella fase successiva (Lengyel-Sopot ecc.).
È quindi probabile che siano entrati in Europa attraverso Creta/Grecia e da lì si siano spostati in Italia, piuttosto che il contrario.
The Globetrekker estimated path being calculated mainly by using modern testers results. The problem is however, that especially people of British descent are highly overtested at both FTDNA and YFull, some Albanians and some Gulf Arabs are highly overtested at YFull, whereas populations like Romanians and Moldovans are severely undertested. The result of this testing bias is, that nearly all European haplogroups, not just E-V13 being pulled further West than they should.
This means the position of a lot of E-V13 mutations on the map being the result of insufficient sampling and sampling bias. There is an additional problem to the East, both for E-V13 and R-L2 by the way, that they were once very widespread in areas, in which later the Slavs expanded into. While E-V13 was assimilated by the Slavs and spread with Slavic people too, in later periods, the Slavic expansion did both erradicate a lot of E-V13 lineages and did change their distribution also.
These two factors:
1) Testing bias in modern testers (like overtested British)
2) Survival bias in areas into which later Germanics and especially Slavs expanded into (like Slovakia, Romania, Moldova etc.)
causing skewed estimates for the pathways. There are methods to account for that. Like phylogeographer and scaledinnovation try to take these factors more into account, but its still a bias towards better tested people (like English on FTDNA, Albanians on YFull) and of course a bias towards "survivors" vs. extincted or at least decimated populations (like the Dacians).
Therefore the central European position of the main branches of E-V13 in the early periods seems to be an artefact of insufficient data and algorithms which don't or even still can't take those factors fully into account.
In reality, the centre of gravity of E-V13 must have been, in the MBA to EIA, somewhere in the Carpatho-Balkan sphere, likely between Transylvania and Oltenia IMHO.
The spread of E-V13 to the West happened early with Urnfield (around 1.100 BC), then with Eastern Hallstatt exchange networks (Basarabi did have intensive contacts with Eastern Hallstatt groups like Frög in Southern Austria), and later, around 600 BC, we have the big Vekerzug phenomenon, which must have brought E-V13 to the West, with an additional big effect of La Tene Celtic backflow, since the La Tene Celts did assimilate or mix with regional Daco-Thracian/Daco-Illyrian mixed groups (like the Srem group) and these seem to have migrated back into Celtic core territories.
Especially for your haplogroup that's a likely scenario, like explained.
But mutations like CTS5856 and BY3880 are extremely likely to have happened in the Carpatho-Balkan/Tisza-Danube sphere. Chances of these mutations and the later big expansions of V13 in the MBA-LBA having taken place in Alpine central Europe are in my opinion close to zero. This is primarily an issue of the model used by FTDNA, which overestimates the overtested populations importance, especially of British testers.
Just look into FTDNA how many branches younger than 1500 have multiple testers in the FTDNA data base? Most of these are either British or Ashkenazi Jewish. Even for Western Germans there are probably only handful, mostly based on early migrants to America which had a regional founder effect. Other German or Central European lineages (or Italian for that matter), are completely underreprented in this respect.
Like I have found a huge cluster of E-FGC11451 in North Western Italy, with a centre of gravity around Genua, which seems to include the lineage of Garibaldi, but also many other regional Italian lineages. Not a single one of the Italian testers I found in the STR data base from this cluster has taken a BigY test, not a single one! There is probably just one Italian BigY tester plus a Sardinian branch (since there was a study which tested thousands of Sardinians). And this despite the fact that this E-FGC11451-cluster likely represents many thousands of North Western Italians.
If such a big cluster would have existed among English colonists moving to America, you can be sure the data base would represent that much better.
This means the position of a lot of E-V13 mutations on the map being the result of insufficient sampling and sampling bias. There is an additional problem to the East, both for E-V13 and R-L2 by the way, that they were once very widespread in areas, in which later the Slavs expanded into. While E-V13 was assimilated by the Slavs and spread with Slavic people too, in later periods, the Slavic expansion did both erradicate a lot of E-V13 lineages and did change their distribution also.
These two factors:
1) Testing bias in modern testers (like overtested British)
2) Survival bias in areas into which later Germanics and especially Slavs expanded into (like Slovakia, Romania, Moldova etc.)
causing skewed estimates for the pathways. There are methods to account for that. Like phylogeographer and scaledinnovation try to take these factors more into account, but its still a bias towards better tested people (like English on FTDNA, Albanians on YFull) and of course a bias towards "survivors" vs. extincted or at least decimated populations (like the Dacians).
Therefore the central European position of the main branches of E-V13 in the early periods seems to be an artefact of insufficient data and algorithms which don't or even still can't take those factors fully into account.
In reality, the centre of gravity of E-V13 must have been, in the MBA to EIA, somewhere in the Carpatho-Balkan sphere, likely between Transylvania and Oltenia IMHO.
The spread of E-V13 to the West happened early with Urnfield (around 1.100 BC), then with Eastern Hallstatt exchange networks (Basarabi did have intensive contacts with Eastern Hallstatt groups like Frög in Southern Austria), and later, around 600 BC, we have the big Vekerzug phenomenon, which must have brought E-V13 to the West, with an additional big effect of La Tene Celtic backflow, since the La Tene Celts did assimilate or mix with regional Daco-Thracian/Daco-Illyrian mixed groups (like the Srem group) and these seem to have migrated back into Celtic core territories.
Especially for your haplogroup that's a likely scenario, like explained.
But mutations like CTS5856 and BY3880 are extremely likely to have happened in the Carpatho-Balkan/Tisza-Danube sphere. Chances of these mutations and the later big expansions of V13 in the MBA-LBA having taken place in Alpine central Europe are in my opinion close to zero. This is primarily an issue of the model used by FTDNA, which overestimates the overtested populations importance, especially of British testers.
Just look into FTDNA how many branches younger than 1500 have multiple testers in the FTDNA data base? Most of these are either British or Ashkenazi Jewish. Even for Western Germans there are probably only handful, mostly based on early migrants to America which had a regional founder effect. Other German or Central European lineages (or Italian for that matter), are completely underreprented in this respect.
Like I have found a huge cluster of E-FGC11451 in North Western Italy, with a centre of gravity around Genua, which seems to include the lineage of Garibaldi, but also many other regional Italian lineages. Not a single one of the Italian testers I found in the STR data base from this cluster has taken a BigY test, not a single one! There is probably just one Italian BigY tester plus a Sardinian branch (since there was a study which tested thousands of Sardinians). And this despite the fact that this E-FGC11451-cluster likely represents many thousands of North Western Italians.
If such a big cluster would have existed among English colonists moving to America, you can be sure the data base would represent that much better.
ELIOV13
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Cao,sei d'accordo con il percorso migratorio e la nascita geografica degli aplogruppi proposta da FTDNA?L618 dalla Sicilia?By3880 in nord Italia?Quindi poi da lì si espansero ad est sino alla Grecia?In che periodo furono maggioranza tra i Daco Traci?
Scusami,quindi che percorso fecero i V13 per arrivare in centro Europa dove e' posto CTS 5856 (dove ci sono le cladi più antiche) per poi espandersi con 3880 attraverso i campi d'urne,Hallstat,La Tene?Insomma tribù celtiche?Non avrebbero dovuto espandersi dalla Tracia ed avere lì i cladi più antichi?Anche i Dori (che dovrebbero essere arrivati in Grecia con popolazioni miste Hallstat-Illiriche) non tagliano fuori l'espansione Daco-Tracia o in quel periodo i V13 erano già trasferiti completamente in centro Europa? O subirono un forte effetto"collo di bottiglia" per poi essere presenti solo in centro Europa?GrazieUn'altra mappa per diffusione di Impresso-Cardial e permanente di E-L618 (come lignaggio minoritario tra loro):
Come si può vedere, il percorso più probabile va dal Neolitico preceramico nel Levante (post-natufiano) all'Europa sudorientale, diffondendosi da lì prima via mare, lungo le coste, per poi addentrarsi nel continente lungo i fiumi nella fase successiva (Lengyel-Sopot ecc.).
È quindi probabile che siano entrati in Europa attraverso Creta/Grecia e da lì si siano spostati in Italia, piuttosto che il contrario.
Grazie,bravissimo e molto competente.
I made a new evaluation and statsitic based on the FTDNA data base (BigY Blocktree and Discover being used) for E-V13.
This time I concentrated once more on the main branches of E-V13, which, going after my results, make up about 62+ % of all modern E-V13 testers. That means these main branches frequencies approach 2 of 3 members of E-V13. Without E-BY5022 and older side branches, the main LBA-EIA founder lineages still make up roughly about 50 % of all testers. These are basically just 4 branches dating back to the Late Bronze to Early Iron Age transition (Gáva-related Channelled Ware horizon). More on that after the statistic:
The majority of E-FGC11457 falls unde E-FGC11451 (TMRCA 1100 BC) - actually even under E-FGC11450 (TMRCA 950 BC). The reason I used E-FGC11457 is, that it is a reliable number and there was no such strong need for an estimate as in the case of E-BY5022.
E-Y3183 being also completely dominated by E-S2972 (TMRCA of 1400) of which again 2/3 being dominated by E-A7135 (TMCRA 1300 BC) -> E-A7136 (TMRCA 1000 BC).
In any case, this means that four of the main branches of E-V13 are definitely from LBA-EIA founder events in the narrowest possible sense:
- E-CTS9320
- E-FGC11451
- E-L241
- E-A7135
Contrary to that, E-BY5022 has already a main branch and fairly big founder event with E-FGC57496 around 1900 BC. There is no dominating LBA-EIA main branch afterwards - as there are for E-Z5017 or E-Z5018.
This suggests a higher population base for E-BY5022 around 1900 BC, with a big expansion and replacement event around 1300-900 BC with the main Z5017 and Z5018 branches playing the leading role. This is the timing for Gáva-related Channelled Ware and my assumption is that every main lineage of Z5017/Z5017 began to dominate a specific tribe of Daco-Thracians/North Thracians. Again, based on the modern and ancient distribution, the most likely scenario is:
- E-CTS9320 (Banat-Serbian Danube) = Belegis II-Gáva-Insula Banului into Western Basarabi?
- E-FGC11451 (Transcarpathia-Transtisza-Transylvania) = Gáva-Holigrady into Sanislau-Vekerzug/Kustanovice and/or Northern Basarabi?
- E-L241 (Transcarpathia-Transtisza-Transylvania) = Gáva-Holigrady into Sanislau-Vekerzug/Kustanovice and/or Northern Basarabi?
- E-A7135 (Southern Transylvania-Oltenia-Muntenia) = Gáva-Holigrady-Vartop into Eastern Basarabi?
This is contrary to E-BY5022 which looks more like: Verbicoara-Tei into Zimnicea-Plovdiv-Cerkovna into Psenichevo (South Thracians)
What this doesn't mean is, that E-BY5022 wasn't present in Northern territories at all, or that Northern-central Z5017+Z5018 branches weren't in the South, because there was most definitely exchange, but the centre of gravity should have been along those lines.
It is possible, that especially the Z5018 main branches FGC11451+L241+A7135 lived in a state of mixture, especially FGC11451+L241 show a near identical pattern in both ancient and modern DNA samples, suggesting they did overlap for a prolonged period of time. Even their South Balkan expansion in say Albanians and Greeks is near identical and mirrors itself.
This would suggest a first unity FGC11451+L241+A7135, with A7135 either breaking up and moving South or if there was a South to North migration from Oltenia (much less likely, but alternative to Gáva-persistence in the North), then A7135 would have stayed more behind.
In any case, the data is glass clear. Almost half of all E-V13 modern males descends from just 4 males which lived around 1.200 BC. This population, in which these 4 lineages lived, was already completely dominated by E-Z5018/Z5017. It was separated from E-BY5022, likely by isolation. There is no space West of the ZPC, to account for that, but only North-North West of it, which leaves us with the regions Transcarpathia-Transtisza-Transylvania-Banat-Oltenia.
The timing for the 4 founders is nearly in perfect agreement with Gáva into Belegis II-Gáva/Vartop/Insula Banului the latest.
The most impressive short term eruption is E-CTS9320, which singlehandedly put Z5017 on the table, with every 5th modern testers belonging to this branch, to which was given birth around 1.200 BC. The 3 Z5018 founders are not far behind, but this branch remains the most impressive for a growth out of almost nothing. I'm highly confident CTS9320 will be the main branch in Basarabi, especially in Western Basarabi (Danube), whereas in Oltenia it could have been Y3183.
This time I concentrated once more on the main branches of E-V13, which, going after my results, make up about 62+ % of all modern E-V13 testers. That means these main branches frequencies approach 2 of 3 members of E-V13. Without E-BY5022 and older side branches, the main LBA-EIA founder lineages still make up roughly about 50 % of all testers. These are basically just 4 branches dating back to the Late Bronze to Early Iron Age transition (Gáva-related Channelled Ware horizon). More on that after the statistic:
The majority of E-FGC11457 falls unde E-FGC11451 (TMRCA 1100 BC) - actually even under E-FGC11450 (TMRCA 950 BC). The reason I used E-FGC11457 is, that it is a reliable number and there was no such strong need for an estimate as in the case of E-BY5022.
E-Y3183 being also completely dominated by E-S2972 (TMRCA of 1400) of which again 2/3 being dominated by E-A7135 (TMCRA 1300 BC) -> E-A7136 (TMRCA 1000 BC).
In any case, this means that four of the main branches of E-V13 are definitely from LBA-EIA founder events in the narrowest possible sense:
- E-CTS9320
- E-FGC11451
- E-L241
- E-A7135
Contrary to that, E-BY5022 has already a main branch and fairly big founder event with E-FGC57496 around 1900 BC. There is no dominating LBA-EIA main branch afterwards - as there are for E-Z5017 or E-Z5018.
This suggests a higher population base for E-BY5022 around 1900 BC, with a big expansion and replacement event around 1300-900 BC with the main Z5017 and Z5018 branches playing the leading role. This is the timing for Gáva-related Channelled Ware and my assumption is that every main lineage of Z5017/Z5017 began to dominate a specific tribe of Daco-Thracians/North Thracians. Again, based on the modern and ancient distribution, the most likely scenario is:
- E-CTS9320 (Banat-Serbian Danube) = Belegis II-Gáva-Insula Banului into Western Basarabi?
- E-FGC11451 (Transcarpathia-Transtisza-Transylvania) = Gáva-Holigrady into Sanislau-Vekerzug/Kustanovice and/or Northern Basarabi?
- E-L241 (Transcarpathia-Transtisza-Transylvania) = Gáva-Holigrady into Sanislau-Vekerzug/Kustanovice and/or Northern Basarabi?
- E-A7135 (Southern Transylvania-Oltenia-Muntenia) = Gáva-Holigrady-Vartop into Eastern Basarabi?
This is contrary to E-BY5022 which looks more like: Verbicoara-Tei into Zimnicea-Plovdiv-Cerkovna into Psenichevo (South Thracians)
What this doesn't mean is, that E-BY5022 wasn't present in Northern territories at all, or that Northern-central Z5017+Z5018 branches weren't in the South, because there was most definitely exchange, but the centre of gravity should have been along those lines.
It is possible, that especially the Z5018 main branches FGC11451+L241+A7135 lived in a state of mixture, especially FGC11451+L241 show a near identical pattern in both ancient and modern DNA samples, suggesting they did overlap for a prolonged period of time. Even their South Balkan expansion in say Albanians and Greeks is near identical and mirrors itself.
This would suggest a first unity FGC11451+L241+A7135, with A7135 either breaking up and moving South or if there was a South to North migration from Oltenia (much less likely, but alternative to Gáva-persistence in the North), then A7135 would have stayed more behind.
In any case, the data is glass clear. Almost half of all E-V13 modern males descends from just 4 males which lived around 1.200 BC. This population, in which these 4 lineages lived, was already completely dominated by E-Z5018/Z5017. It was separated from E-BY5022, likely by isolation. There is no space West of the ZPC, to account for that, but only North-North West of it, which leaves us with the regions Transcarpathia-Transtisza-Transylvania-Banat-Oltenia.
The timing for the 4 founders is nearly in perfect agreement with Gáva into Belegis II-Gáva/Vartop/Insula Banului the latest.
The most impressive short term eruption is E-CTS9320, which singlehandedly put Z5017 on the table, with every 5th modern testers belonging to this branch, to which was given birth around 1.200 BC. The 3 Z5018 founders are not far behind, but this branch remains the most impressive for a growth out of almost nothing. I'm highly confident CTS9320 will be the main branch in Basarabi, especially in Western Basarabi (Danube), whereas in Oltenia it could have been Y3183.
