Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

[mihaitzateo]

Bring moar Serbs to this thread.

 

[Angela]

So what I am still proud of my heritage and don't pretend that the people I am related to are something else.

He is closer to Tuscans than the Albanian samples but he doesn't plot on Tuscany he plots closer to Tuscany than average Albanians like I am somewhere between Tuscany and Abruzzo on my single mix.. Got it?

I'm completely uninterested in where other people plot except in so far as it helps in discussions of population genetics. As a completely admixed person your results are of no utility in that sense, while Dibran's are...

 

[Ygorcs]

The Illyrians were from Rome it doesn't even make sense that they would descend from Illyrians

Please think and read twice (or more times) before writing down this degree of pseudo-scientific "revisionism" and spreading misinformation all around. You have written so many frankly unbelievable things in this topic alone that I am really in doubt if you are not a t-r-o-l-l making fun of us or deliberately trying to confuse people in favor of some agenda. And these totally unsubstantiated and "original" ideas are taking people away from the real focus on the serious and at least vaguely supported by actual scientists issues that are to be discussed in this topic.

 

[Angela]

I agree. So there isn't any point to comment here further...All of us

But the closer you plot to something the more proof there is to a people still existing or not.

No one directly plots on anything here that is all

You misunderstand how PCAs work. The Tuscans and TSI are BOTH Tuscans yet they don't plot in EXACTLY the same spot. If you were to plot some other 100% Tuscans they'd plot around there, but not necessarily completely sitting on top of it.

All of that said, Albanians are not Tuscans. Just look at the ylines. They are definitely close as populations go, probably because of similar percentages of ancient populations, but they are not the same, and no one is saying they are. What it shows is that there was at one point in the past a population in the Balkans with similar levels of EEF and CHG as some Italian groups. Slavic migrations in the early Middle Ages changed that, but less in the Albanians. The Romanians and Bulgarians also have a lot of that ancestry.

I wish Albania had been included in this paper. Had it been there would be much less heat and more light in this discussion.

"

 

[Sile]

You misunderstand how PCAs work. The Tuscans and TSI are BOTH Tuscans yet they don't plot in EXACTLY the same spot. If you were to plot some other 100% Tuscans they'd plot around there, but not necessarily completely sitting on top of it.
All of that said, Albanians are not Tuscans. Just look at the ylines. They are definitely close as populations go, probably because of similar percentages of ancient populations, but they are not the same, and no one is saying they are. What it shows is that there was at one point in the past a population in the Balkans with similar levels of EEF and CHG as some Italian groups. Slavic migrations in the early Middle Ages changed that, but less in the Albanians. The Romanians and Bulgarians also have a lot of that ancestry.
I wish Albania had been included in this paper. Had it been there would be much less heat and more light in this discussion.
"

albanians are included as kosovars ...ie..same as gheg Albanians .......the Tosk Albanians , I am unsure, but could have more similarities with NW Greeks

 

[Milan.M]

You misunderstand how PCAs work. The Tuscans and TSI are BOTH Tuscans yet they don't plot in EXACTLY the same spot. If you were to plot some other 100% Tuscans they'd plot around there, but not necessarily completely sitting on top of it.

All of that said, Albanians are not Tuscans. Just look at the ylines. They are definitely close as populations go, probably because of similar percentages of ancient populations, but they are not the same, and no one is saying they are. What it shows is that there was at one point in the past a population in the Balkans with similar levels of EEF and CHG as some Italian groups. Slavic migrations in the early Middle Ages changed that, but less in the Albanians. The Romanians and Bulgarians also have a lot of that ancestry.

I wish Albania had been included in this paper. Had it been there would be much less heat and more light in this discussion.

"

Albanians represented as Kosovars behind them are Macedonians,Bulgarians and Romanians with similar ancestry.If i follow the later they have more Daco-Thracian ancestry,one Thracian sample was very EEF like,for comparison "Illyrian" sample from Croatia had 30% steppe ancestry and 15% EHG.
Maybe the Illyrians were more northern shifted than Thraco-Dacians?

 

[Angela]

Albanians represented as Kosovars behind them are Macedonians,Bulgarians and Romanians with similar ancestry.If i follow the later they have more Daco-Thracian ancestry,one Thracian sample was very EEF like,for comparison "Illyrian" sample from Croatia had 30% steppe ancestry and 15% EHG.
Maybe the Illyrians were more northern shifted than Thraco-Dacians?

If that is true, then the similarity as well as the difference between Albanians and Tuscans is clearly laid out.

As for your second point, I think we need more ancient samples from both areas. In an early paper there were "French" like Thracians with significant steppe ancestry too, but they were more elite burials.

I think we need not only more samples, but better dating, analysis of status from grave goods etc., something like what was done in the Langobard paper. That should be the standard: dating, archaeology, kinship analysis, status analysis etc. as well as analysis of the genetics.

It's too easy to make mistakes where people look at an elite burial and think that genome represents the whole population.

What I think is clear, imo, of course, is that the Indo-European migrations into the Balkans didn't produce the kind of large population wide change that we see in northern Europe, where the native population was much lower for various reasons. We saw that even in the Langobard paper with the Pannonian samples, and Hungary is Central Europe.

 

[Salento]

..... to Tuscans, not South Italians. South Italians are closer to islander Greeks......
...

I’m a Southern Italian from the land of the Messapi (Salento/Puglia), and I'm more Tuscan than Greek.
I'm fine either way.

 

[Crya]

Why don't you start a thread about the Ethnogenesis of the Serbs, their origine, language, etc. There is not too much information about this important period of your history. I have fail to find a similar thread around in forums including Eupedia. Even the Wiki page about this period of history of your nation is very poor.

Yeah, that's a good idea with one issue. According to the mind setup of most of the Croats and Albanians that I saw on this forum this would become a big charade. With a reason unknown to me and even though the war has ended like 20 years ago, they would try to neglect arrival of a Serbs to Balkan with an excuse that there are no genetic evidence to support that fact. They would rather claim that there was some peoples, Croats, Albanians or Vlahs or all together, that in one period of time just decided to call them self Serbs and they would find logic in that This is simplified version of their perception that they would defend so hard and give you a lot of "facts" to support it.

 

[Crya]

This is correct, Laberia, you are right in this. Deretic is the greatest source Serbians use for themselves and their neighbors surrounding them. Deretic is one of the main sources of Serbian wikipedia, that is run and edited by Serbian propagandist Boris Malagurski.

Albanian genetics have been debunking Serbian "historians" altogether. What matters is that we are the natives of the Balkans, regardless of what chauvinistic Serbians tell you.

Deretic is marginalized person in Serbia and people are using him to make jokes.There are and will always be uneducated people who are prepared to believe in stupidity, do you think that Albanians are excluded from such things? The position of SANU (Serbian Academy of Science and Art) is clear and is in accordance with European history and standards and that is official state policy. So please stop with this chauvinistic propaganda.

 

[LABERIA]

Yeah, that's a good idea with one issue. According to the mind setup of most of the Croats and Albanians that I saw on this forum this would become a big charade. With a reason unknown to me and even though the war has ended like 20 years ago, they would try to neglect arrival of a Serbs to Balkan with an excuse that there are no genetic evidence to support that fact. They would rather claim that there was some peoples, Croats, Albanians or Vlahs or all together, that in one period of time just decided to call them self Serbs and they would find logic in that This is simplified version of their perception that they would defend so hard and give you a lot of "facts" to support it.

I partially agree with you. It is true that can be people who can disturb a normal discussion. But you can not alone correct the "world" and then there are moderators in this forum. Maybe i did not searched well, but i can not find a thread that talks about the issues that i have mentioned. It is a handicap. Someone of you Serbs must start a thread and start to talk about your history,etc. This will also serve to eliminate misunderstandings and to address in the right thread the specific and off topic discussions about Serbs that often starts even in threads that have nothing to do with the Serbs.

 

[Crya]

Serbian chauvinists claimed Kosovar Albanians as Albanized Serbs, which is not true, as Kosovar Albanians have no Slavic admixture.

Who have ever claimed that? First time in my life i hear this. Why are you posting this nonsense? Can you show the source?

 

[Crya]

I partially agree with you. It is true that can be people who can disturb a normal discussion. But you can not alone correct the "world" and then there are moderators in this forum. Maybe i did not searched well, but i can not find a thread that talks about the issues that i have mentioned. It is a handicap. Someone of you Serbs must start a thread and start to talk about your history,etc. This will also serve to eliminate misunderstandings and to address in the right thread the specific and off topic discussions about Serbs that often starts even in threads that have nothing to do with the Serbs.

Yeah i agree with you, that would be interesting but i am not the right person to start the tread especially because my knowledge of genetic is limited. Also, maybe it is too early since there are limited genetic evidence to show where the Serbs came from to a Balkan as far as i know. I saw some thread here on Eupedia when someone tried to touch this subject which completely failed and turned into a charade. The last attempt that i saw was something written by Vlad82 and i believe he is on the good path and will post something in the near future when there will be enough data to be analized and support his claims.

 

[don_joe]

Yeah, that's a good idea with one issue. According to the mind setup of most of the Croats and Albanians that I saw on this forum this would become a big charade. With a reason unknown to me and even though the war has ended like 20 years ago, they would try to neglect arrival of a Serbs to Balkan with an excuse that there are no genetic evidence to support that fact. They would rather claim that there was some peoples, Croats, Albanians or Vlahs or all together, that in one period of time just decided to call them self Serbs and they would find logic in that This is simplified version of their perception that they would defend so hard and give you a lot of "facts" to support it.

What are you talking about? You're twisting it shamelessly. Neither Croats nor Albanians started the war you mentioned, it was the other way around.

Hey, I don't hate Sebians as a Croat. I respect them as any other nation. I respect their culture and their history. I only don't respect lies and propaganda of this kind and it sadly became a pattern.

Your national politics caused only misery in the Balkans and you have not enough decency but to play even a victim now?

 

[mihaitzateo]

You misunderstand how PCAs work. The Tuscans and TSI are BOTH Tuscans yet they don't plot in EXACTLY the same spot. If you were to plot some other 100% Tuscans they'd plot around there, but not necessarily completely sitting on top of it.

All of that said, Albanians are not Tuscans. Just look at the ylines. They are definitely close as populations go, probably because of similar percentages of ancient populations, but they are not the same, and no one is saying they are. What it shows is that there was at one point in the past a population in the Balkans with similar levels of EEF and CHG as some Italian groups. Slavic migrations in the early Middle Ages changed that, but less in the Albanians. The Romanians and Bulgarians also have a lot of that ancestry.

I wish Albania had been included in this paper. Had it been there would be much less heat and more light in this discussion.

"

According to this graph, only Croats and Bosnians are more Slavic than Balkans.
But here the admixture which came from North Europe is not divided into NW and NE admixture.
You cannot know if those Slavs that migrated 600 AD had significant (like 20% or 30%) of NW Europe admixture.

 

[Crya]

What are you talking about? You're twisting it shamelessly. Neither Croats nor Albanians started the war you mentioned, it was the other way around.

Hey, I don't hate Sebians as a Croat. I respect them as any other nation. I respect their culture and their history. I only don't respect lies and propaganda of this kind and it sadly became a pattern.

Your national politics caused only misery in the Balkans and you have not enough decency but to play even a victim now?

What the hell have happened in Switzerland? You guys came to live there, both Serbs and Croats and you brought war with you? That is just sad. I've seen many incidents between Serbs and Croats there. I am living in Qatar, having many Croat and Albanian friends and we are seeing each other on daily basses enjoying life. You should try do the same.

I never mentioned who started war I just mentioned that the war has ended 20 years ago but not in peoples heads, and you are a good example for that even though you were probably not even born in the time of war. You mentioned that you don't hate Serbs and you respect them but your words are showing opposite. I will say it one more time, the war has ended, get over with it and move on.

 

[Wonomyro]

A Bronze Age sample from Croatia could be called Illyrian or proto-Illyrian. There is a PCA plot witin a PDF file, which compares ancient samples with the modern ones:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...me_series_from_coastal_and_hinterland_Croatia

The sample plots near present day Bulgarians. It is obviously slightly northernly shifted from present day Albanians but still much closer to Albanian-Greek cluster then to present day Croats.

 

[don_joe]

What the hell have happened in Switzerland? You guys came to live there, both Serbs and Croats and you brought war with you? That is just sad. I've seen many incidents between Serbs and Croats there. I am living in Qatar, having many Croat and Albanian friends and we are seeing each other on daily basses enjoying life. You should try do the same.

I never mentioned who started war I just mentioned that the war has ended 20 years ago but not in peoples heads, and you are a good example for that even though you were probably not even born in the time of war. You mentioned that you don't hate Serbs and you respect them but your words are showing opposite. I will say it one more time, the war has ended, get over with it and move on.

You either get it wrong or twist it on purpose. When I say respect, I mean it. I never ever had an incindent with a Serbian here, au contraire. They are my friends and colleagues and we certainly don't talk about wars and politics. Our children play together, we take each others children even to trips with.

I only had to react to your general statement about Croats and Albanians, which if it's not propaganda again, is quite unnecessary. Those are not words of peace and are unfair to those who are not involved in any agenda here.

For the matter of fact, I was even in military during the war. Enough to see how people turn to beasts, regardless of nationality (I'm not going into it who did it more and who did it less). And guess who is to blame? Those selling myths and lies as well as the uneducated ignorant suckers who buy it. So let's not repeat any more old lies here and let us think with our own head. Putting whole nations into categories is counterproductive. Let's stick to the arguments and facts. That's what this forum is for.

I don't buy Serbian propaganda and I'm not buying Croatian propaganda either. Let's be beyond this 100 years old tensions that never die out. Knowledge and education can save us all from it. I came here to learn, not to preach.

Wish you all the best.

 

[Crya]

You either get it wrong or twist it on purpose. When I say respect, I mean it. I never ever had an incindent with a Serbian here, au contraire. They are my friends and colleagues and we certainly don't talk about wars and politics. Our children play together, we take each others children even to trips with.

I only had to react to your general statement about Croats and Albanians, which if it's not propaganda again, is quite unnecessary. Those are not words of peace and are unfair to those who are not involved in any agenda here.

For the matter of fact, I was even in military during the war. Enough to see how people turn to beasts, regardless of nationality (I'm not going into it who did it more and who did it less). And guess who is to blame? Those selling myths and lies as well as the uneducated ignorant suckers who buy it. So let's not repeat any more old lies here and let us think with our own head. Putting whole nations into categories is counterproductive. Let's stick to the arguments and facts. That's what this forum is for.

What propaganda are you talking about? The charade coming on this forum when it comes not only to Serbian but Croatian and Albanian history is not my imagination it is the fact. Laberia has also agreed on this. He asked to start the tread about Serbian history and I replied why i think it would become a charade, although the idea is good. The thing that this is more coming in treads about Serbian history IMO is probably because our ancient history is less clear then your. I have never put all Croats, or Albanians into category you are talking about neither I was trying to play victim. I just said that there will always be those kind of people to ruin the treads and in that moment the subject was Serbian history, not Croatian, not Albanian.

I don't buy Serbian propaganda and I'm not buying Croatian propaganda either. Let's be beyond this 100 years old tensions that never die out. Knowledge and education can save us all from it. I came here to learn, not to preach.

Wish you all the best.

I am not buying it ether and all these charades are just sending bad messages to the rest of the world about Balkan that sometimes I am asking my self are we really that primitive? I doubt, but we are not doing much to show the opposite and to overcome disagreements from the last few decades or even a century as you mentioned.

I hope we finally understand each other.

All the best to you and your family.

 

[Crya]

A Bronze Age sample from Croatia could be called Illyrian or proto-Illyrian. There is a PCA plot witin a PDF file, which compares ancient samples with the modern ones:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...me_series_from_coastal_and_hinterland_Croatia

The sample plots near present day Bulgarians. It is obviously slightly northernly shifted from present day Albanians but still much closer to Albanian-Greek cluster then to present day Croats.

This is very interesting. I haven't seen modern day Serbian sample on PDF, how we fit there anyone know? Should be somewhere between Croatian and Bulgarians?