New distribution map of haplogroup E-M123

kingjohn said:
I can't see
I am online pressing on the link attachment
But i get a messsge

P.s
Would be interesting to see agok indo-iranian branch movement
Click to expand...

Should be visible now - it is interesting that the Indo-Iranian branch has 5 living members from England and 5 from USA and the graphics are suggesting a Sarmatian migration in the Late Antiquity/Early Middle ages.

About the E-pf4428 migration route I am skeptical as probably the migration was from Anatolia to the Balkans instead.

MpokHS4.png
 
Valerius said:
Should be visible now - it is interesting that the Indo-Iranian branch has 5 living members from England and 5 from USA and the graphics are suggesting a Sarmatian migration in the Late Antiquity/Early Middle ages.

About the E-pf4428 migration route I am skeptical as probably the migration was from Anatolia to the Balkans instead.

MpokHS4.png
Click to expand...



it is indeed interesting theory by ftdna
it is also posible the austrian and the german e-m123* cases in ftdna
are also under this indo-iranian branch e-ft179548 and not under e-fgc62222
we can't know untill they will upgrade there kits to big y-700 at some point in the future
 
kingjohn said:
it is indeed interesting theory by ftdna
it is also posible the austrian and the german e-m123* cases in ftdna
are also under this indo-iranian branch e-ft179548 and not under e-fgc62222
we can't know untill they will upgrade there kits to big y-700 at some point in the future
Click to expand...

Two Germans so far with bigY are located here:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y95076/

Another German is pf4428+ :

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y168273*/

Plus another one from Thuringia is also pf4428+

So maybe they dont have the Indo-Iranian branch.

England is known for having Sarmatian settlements so wont be a mystery if such haplogroups show up there.
 
Valerius said:
Two Germans so far with bigY are located here:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y95076/

Another German is pf4428+ :

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y168273*/

Plus another one from Thuringia is also pf4428+

So maybe they dont have the Indo-Iranian branch.

England is known for having Sarmatian settlements so wont be a mystery if such haplogroups show up there.
Click to expand...


Ala Primae Sarmatarum – The First Wing of Sarmatians


Cassius Dio (Historiarum Romanorum quae Supersunt LXXI.xvi.2) records that 5,500 Sarmatian cavalry were posted to Britain under the terms of the treaty of AD175. These men would very likely have been split into eleven Cavalry Alae of quingenary strength (i.e. 500 troopers per unit), or may have been used to provide a cavalry contingent for around twenty-odd under-strength infantry units, thus forming cohortes equitatae, or indeed, any combination. It is very unlikely that any were formed into a large cavalry ala milliaria, as these are very rare, there being generally only a single example in any one province, and the only one recorded in Britain was housed in the Stanwix fort on Hadrian’s Wall, the Ala Petriana. These cavalry troopers must have been housed in forts scattered throughout northern Britain and Wales; some of which were apparently formed into the Ala Sarmatarum and stationed at the Ribchester fort. The unit is attested only on two undated inscriptions.
As the ala became depleted – through retirement mostly – its numbers were not replenished it seems, and its status changed to that of a numerus ‘company’ by 222-35, and thence to a lowly cuneus ‘wedge’ by the end of the fourth century. The tile stamped BSAR found at Catterick, may have connections with this unit in one of its several incarnations. During its entire lifetime the unit was stationed at Ribchester in Britain, and uniquely allowed to change its military classification.

Evidence for the presence of Ala Primae Sarmatarum in Britain


  1. Bremetenacum (Ribchester, Lancashire; RIB 594 et 595).
  2. ?Bremetenacum (Ribchester, Lancashire; RIB 587; AD222-35).
  3. ?Cataractonium (Catterick, North Yorkshire; RIB 2479; stamped tile).
  4. ?Bremetenacum (Ribchester, Lancashire; Notitia Dignitatum xl.54; c. 4th/5th C. AD).
Numerus Equitum Sarmatarum – The Company of Sarmatian Horsemen


  1. Ribchester (RIB 583; dedicatory inscription to Apollo; AD241).
Cuneus Sarmatarum – The Formation of Sarmatians


  1. Ribchester (Notitia Dignitatum).
 
a yemeni yseq tester look like important one
created a splitt inside e-m84 ;)
1697374529526.png



according to theytree site: he is under e-m84 branch but not in his downstream e-y5417
1697373359731.png
 
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kingjohn said:
back to the middle east :)

iraqi kurds and turkmens

this paper:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0187408

500 northern iraqi (17 y-str predicted e1b1b1 in this paper is predicted by negven
but also by whit athey predictor )

from the paper:
17-loci Y-STR-based in silico haplogroup assignments were made using the 21-haplogroup batch processing version of the Whit Athey algorithm [29]. Validation of the in silico haplogroup assignments were carried out using a second algorithm called NevGen Y-DNA Haplogroup Predictor (www.nevgen.org).

i focsed on the e1b1b1( e-m34 branches ) in iraqi kurdish sample and
the turkmen sample;)

image





kurds north iraq 104 samples


kr011- e-m84 (likely e-pf6751)

kr031-e-m84(likely e-y5435)

kr048-e-m84(likely e-pf6751)

kr049-e-m84(likely e-pf6751)

kr056-e-z841(likely e-y4972)

kr069-e-z841(likely e-y4972)

kr076- e-m84( likely e-pf6751)

kr093-e-z841(likely e-y2947)

8/104 7.6% e-m34



turkmen 102 samples


tm014- e-m84
tm028-e-m84( likely e-y5435 )
tm035-e-m84( likely e-pf6751)
tm038-e-m84(likely e-y5435)
tm046-e-m84(likely e-y5435)
tm049-e-m84(likely e-y5435)
tm063-e-z841(likely e-y4972)
tm070-e-m123*(likely e-pf4428)
tm078-e-m84(likely e-pf6751)



7/102 6.8% e-m34 in turkmen
Click to expand...
Kingjohn, since E-M123 especially E-M34 is kinda basal for Semitic-Speaking people, do you have frequency data on Northern Iraqis Arabs and Syriacs in this paper?:)
 
Harutyan Jort said:
Kingjohn, since E-M123 especially E-M34 is kinda basal for Semitic-Speaking people, do you have frequency data on Northern Iraqis Arabs and Syriacs in this paper?:)
Click to expand...

yes
i have
e-m34 is lower in iraqi arabs from north iraq comapre to kurds from north iraq
and in syrian from north iraq e-m34 almost not exist

iraqi arabs( north iraq) 102 samples
ar001-e-v22
ar034-e-v22
ar066-e-m84(likely e-m84)
ar068-e-v22
ar078-e-v22
ar086-e-z841(likely e-z21466)
ar095-e-m84(likely e-y5435)
ar097-e-v13
3/102 2.9% e-m34 in iraqi arabs north iraq



syrians (north iraq) 86 samples
sy073-e-v13
sy063- e-m84(likely e-pf6751)
1/86 1.1% e-m34


p.s
take into account that:
1) it is only 17 markers prediction
based on nevgen predictor ( the higher the number of markers tested the chance of correct prediction is stronger)
2) the paper used whit athey's predictor
so our results of prediction are different since we used different calculators
 
kingjohn said:
yes
i have
e-m34 is lower in iraqi arabs from north iraq comapre to kurds from north iraq
and in syrian from north iraq e-m34 almost not exist

iraqi arabs( north iraq) 102 samples
ar001-e-v22
ar034-e-v22
ar066-e-m84(likely e-m84)
ar068-e-v22
ar078-e-v22
ar086-e-z841(likely e-z21466)
ar095-e-m84(likely e-y5435)
ar097-e-v13
3/102 2.9% e-m34 in iraqi arabs north iraq



syrians (north iraq) 86 samples
sy073-e-v13
sy063- e-m84(likely e-pf6751)
1/86 1.1% e-m34


p.s
take into account that:
1) it is only 17 markers prediction
based on nevgen predictor ( the higher the number of markers tested the chance of correct prediction is stronger)
2) the paper used whit athey's predictor
so our results of prediction are different since we used different calculators
Click to expand...
thx buddy, I am quite surprised at this outcomes though, as E-M34 in antiquity had a strong presence in northern Mesopotamia(Southeastern Anatolia Region) according to the paper

The genetic history of the Southern Arc​

so the low presence of E-M34 in Semitic speaking population of Northern Iraq do struck me alittle bit:sneaky:
but again you are right, It is only 17 markers prediction based on nevgen predictor so we may need further info though.
 
this paper:
High incidence of AZF duplications in clan-structured Iranian populations detected
through Y chromosome sequencing read depth analysis
who sequenced 87 iranian males (from across iran)
found some 4 e-m123>m34 cases:
R015-bakhtiari iranian-(e-m84>pf6751)
R021-iranian kurd from tehran-(e-m84>pf6751)
R042-iranian from tehran-(e-m84>y5427)
R054-qashqai fars province-(e-z841>L791>y2962)


1703859616258.png

1703859566164.png


source:
www.nature.com

High incidence of AZF duplications in clan-structured Iranian populations detected through Y chromosome sequencing read depth analysis - Scientific Reports

The ampliconic region of the human Y chromosome consists of large duplicated sequences that can undergo non-allelic homologous recombination (NAHR), resulting in structural rearrangements that may cause infertility, especially when they occur in the azoospermia factor b/c (AZFb/c) region...
www.nature.com www.nature.com

p.s
in theytree site those e-m123>m34 cases are analysed to there downstreams:

R015 - E-FTA40038 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：R015
www.theytree.com www.theytree.com

R021 - E-FTA56235 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：R021
www.theytree.com www.theytree.com

R042 - E-Y5427 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：R042
www.theytree.com www.theytree.com

R054 - E-Y2962 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：R054
www.theytree.com www.theytree.com
 
kingjohn said:
this paper:
High incidence of AZF duplications in clan-structured Iranian populations detected
through Y chromosome sequencing read depth analysis
who sequenced 87 iranian males (from across iran)
found some 4 e-m123>m34 cases:
R015-bakhtiari iranian-(e-m84>pf6751)
R021-iranian kurd from tehran-(e-m84>pf6751)
R042-iranian from tehran-(e-m84>y5427)
R054-qashqai fars province-(e-z841>L791>y2962)


View attachment 14929
View attachment 14928

source:
www.nature.com

High incidence of AZF duplications in clan-structured Iranian populations detected through Y chromosome sequencing read depth analysis - Scientific Reports

The ampliconic region of the human Y chromosome consists of large duplicated sequences that can undergo non-allelic homologous recombination (NAHR), resulting in structural rearrangements that may cause infertility, especially when they occur in the azoospermia factor b/c (AZFb/c) region...
www.nature.com www.nature.com

p.s
in theytree site those e-m123>m34 cases are analysed to there downstreams:

R015 - E-FTA40038 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：R015
www.theytree.com www.theytree.com

R021 - E-FTA56235 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：R021
www.theytree.com www.theytree.com

R042 - E-Y5427 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：R042
www.theytree.com www.theytree.com

R054 - E-Y2962 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：R054
www.theytree.com www.theytree.com
Click to expand...
bakhtiari？this is quite interesting,since bakhtiari are west Iranian people who speak a southwestern brach of Iranian language(Lur), which is related to standard persian however not mutually intelligible. there are theories that bakhtiari are Iranized Elamites, if it is true then there are for sure Elamite E-M123 dudes that has lived in Iran since time Immemorial:)
 
an update
out of 5179 yfull saudi samples, 404 is E-M123 and its sub-branches, that makes 7.8% of saudi males
 
further update on y-full yemen samples, out of 884 yfull yemeni samples, 169 is E-M123 and its sub-branches, that makes 19.1% of yemen males...:eek:that frequency is very close to E1b1b or J1's frequency among Ashkenazi jews
 
further update: out of 573 y-full Emirati samples, 39is E-M123 and its sub-branches...39/573=6.8%
out of 392 y-full Qatari samples, 7is E-M123 and its sub-branches...7/392=1.78%
out of 1259 y-full kuwaiti samples, 106is E-M123 and its sub-branches...106/1259=8.41%
out of 319 y-full Bahrani samples,16is E-M123 and its sub-branches...16/319=5%
to sum it up, according to Umayyad era law, only those original from Arabian Peninsula(Arabia) are able to self-identify with the terms"Arabs" then likely by that time"original Arabs" are average 8-9% E-M123
 
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move on to Egypt
the case of egypt is interesting, in this journal
out of 147 egyptian arabs, 7% is E-M123
while on the other hand among 186 yfull egyptian samples, 14is E-M123 and its sub-branches...14/186=7.5%
see? the frequency of E-M123 in Egypt does not fluctuate too much after these years
 
an update on Iraqi Arab data, which I also post in this forum,see here:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...gene-flow-across-the-arabian-peninsula.44755/
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-72283-1#Sec18
total 3.14% e-m123 8/254 in Iraqi Arab males
note: I use Nevgen Y-STR predictor
ID.13 ( likely E1b1b M123>M34>Z841)
ID.88 ( likely E1b1b M123>M34>Z841)
ID.176 ( likely E1b1b M123>M34>Z841)
ID.207 ( likely E1b1b M123>M34>M84)
ID.324 ( likely E1b1b M123>M34>Z841)
ID.468 ( likely E1b1b M123>M34>Z841)
ID.502 ( likely E1b1b M123>M34>M84)
ID.506 ( likely E1b1b M123>M34>Z841)
 
move on to...South Asia!
https://www.nature.com/articles/5201726
an old but not yet outdated journal on Pakistan data
they collect 875 pakistani male, the E-m123 frequency in Pakistan is 10/875=1.14%
note: most E-M123 Pakistani ancient samples are E-FT377116
https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient...ree_Variant&searchfor=E-FT377116&ybp=500000,0
so I guess modern Pakistani E-M123 are the same case.
ps: Pakistan is a country with population of 241.5 million
even 1.14% of pakistan male is 1.41million! so I am looking forward to see more details on Pakistani data when more people do commercial tests :)
 
Harutyan Jort said:
move on to...South Asia!
https://www.nature.com/articles/5201726
an old but not yet outdated journal on Pakistan data
they collect 875 pakistani male, the E-m123 frequency in Pakistan is 10/875=1.14%
note: most E-M123 Pakistani ancient samples are E-FT377116
https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient...ree_Variant&searchfor=E-FT377116&ybp=500000,0
so I guess modern Pakistani E-M123 are the same case.
ps: Pakistan is a country with population of 241.5 million
even 1.14% of pakistan male is 1.41million! so I am looking forward to see more details on Pakistani data when more people do commercial tests :)
Click to expand...

nice research thanks (y)
yes could be that modern pakistani e-m123 fall on this e-ft377116 branch which
was found in late bronze age/ early iron age swat in north pakistan
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT179548/ancient
or sadly this south central asian line which is derived from e-m123>ft20896 has died out in that area of the world
and modern day pakistani e-m123 lines are later arrivals or other branches like e-m123>m34>m84>pf6751
future will tell

p.s
about pakistan indeed 241 milion is huge but not all of them are males
only half
it still leave us with something like potential 700,000 e-m123 who walks down in the streets and valleys of pakistan ;)
 
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